Years 4 and 5

[sjt18]

How often does a coach come into a dumpster fire like Jones did? It's easy to do it if you have upperclassmen with talent that have played and have been coached.

Almost always when a coach has been fired. RichRod and now Hoke have at Michigan. Bielema did. Sumlin did. Freeze probably had it worse than Jones at Ole Miss. Franklin's situation at Vandy was worse.

For that matter, both Kiffin and Dooley inherited "dumpster fires".

Of course that's easy... it just isn't as common as you think. Seldom do coaches get fired when they have a bunch of talented upperclassmen that have been coached well. By and large, coaches get fired because they aren't getting good players or coaching them up.

 

[Fatman Photos]

Franklin didn't have to replace both lines and play 22 freshmen either.

 

[Vol_is_Lyfe18]

Franklin didn't have to replace both lines and play 22 freshmen either.

We don't start 22 freshmen and the classes Franklin inherited were worse than any of the classes Kiffin, Dooley or Jones inherited.

 

[oregonvol]

Not a loser mentality, just a realistic mentality. People like to win, and I get that. So do I. However, we have to understand that you aren't going to be successful playing a JV squad against the Varsity in the SEC.

So you're saying that James Franklin inherited more talent than Butch Jones? Seriously? Are you saying that James Franklin's 9 win teams from the past two years had more talent on their roster than Butch Jones has had in either of his 2 years here? That's ridiculous. If anyone was fielding a JV squad, it was Franklin.

 

[sjt18]

I agree with the general principle, but that's a little hindsight 20/20. All of those coaches have been successful, but really none other than Sumlin were ever considered as potential coaches for UT during our hiring. Also, Freeze is looking like a flash in the pan. At least Butch is stocking the cupboard and he will either win with those players or we will finally be able to get a good coach who wants to come here. Either way, recruiting the way he is is a win no matter what and you can only name 4-7 coaches that have done better.

The point is that other programs HAVE seen notable progress within 3 years. It didn't take 4 much less 5.

How many programs in the last 20-30 years can you name where a coach came in, did not have a substantial improvement in wins over his predecessor, got 4 or 5 years to build a winner... and succeeded? I will tell you that they are few if any

None of us have any interest in seen Jones fail. Some of us just rate the success of the program as a higher priority than the success or survival of Jones. If he can't start winning and competing against the better competition in 3 or 4 years then "next man up".

 

[NorthDallas40]

So you're saying that James Franklin inherited more talent than Butch Jones? Seriously? Are you saying that James Franklin's 9 win teams from the past two years had more talent on their roster than Butch Jones has had in either of his 2 years here? That's ridiculous. If anyone was fielding a JV squad, it was Franklin.

Another honest question. What were Franklin's OOC games vs Jones and what were the SEC records? I do believe Franklin had a better SEC record than us last year as we spotted them one with the loss. How about OOC. Saying "9 wins" can be somewhat misleading if we're playing Oregon and Oklahoma and they are playing TN School for The Blind.

 

[Vol_is_Lyfe18]

So you're saying that James Franklin inherited more talent than Butch Jones? Seriously? Are you saying that James Franklin's 9 win teams from the past two years had more talent on their roster than Butch Jones has had in either of his 2 years here? That's ridiculous. If anyone was fielding a JV squad, it was Franklin.

What Jones inherited is the worst situation imaginable to any college football fan. It has never been as bad, and never will be again.

 

[BeecherVol]

Franklin didn't have to replace both lines and play 22 freshmen either.

Correct. That whole team sucked.

 

[supersmo18]

Unfortunately, too many only use Freeze, Malzahn, and Saban as references for why it should happen in year 2, or year 3 at the latest.

This.

Bielema is overachieving at this point, IMO, especially in a brutal SEC West. And good for him. Exception--not the rule.

 

[Vol_is_Lyfe18]

Another honest question. What were Franklin's OOC games vs Jones and what were the SEC records? I do believe Franklin had a better SEC record than us last year as we spotted them one with the loss. How about OOC. Saying "9 wins" can be somewhat misleading if we're playing Oregon and Oklahoma and they are playing TN School for The Blind.

He still got nine wins and he beat Flurdah at their place I believe.

 

[Sin City Vol]

I've finally come to grips with the thought that if Les Miles can win a National Championship, any idiot can as long as they have top recruits and luck. You don't have to be the "best" coach on the field. Fulmer, Fisher, Chizik, Tuberville (I consider that undefeated season) all come to mind. All coaches have strengths and weaknesses, it's just that game management is one of the few skills that fans see on a weekly basis. I still don't like it, I think it's excuse making, and I think a coach needs to be held accountable for bad game management because you will lose games that you shouldn't. But if Les Miles can do it so can Butch (with Top 5 classes).

Les Miles walked into a very stocked roster, Saban was recruiting at a very high level and that state is loaded with talent every year. Les also had so many things go his way, fake FG's, punts, crazy bounces etc..

 

[oregonvol]

Franklin didn't have to replace both lines and play 22 freshmen either.

Butch Jones started 13 4-star recruits against James Franklin's Vanderbilt team last year. Many of them juniors or seniors. Do you know how many 4-star recruit starters James Franklin had? He had 1. This whole "James Franklin inherited a better situation than Butch Jones" excuse-making is just ridiculous.

 

[BowlBrother85]

We don't start 22 freshmen and the classes Franklin inherited were worse than any of the classes Kiffin, Dooley or Jones inherited.

Franklin inherited two solid NFL skill position players on offense in Zac Stacey and Jordan Matthews. That's better than what Jones had to start with. By Vandy standards, Bobby Johnson had recruited very well.

 

[sjt18]

All those above had a full team of upper classmen too.

Prove it.

Freeze inherited a VERY similar situation except he played in the West rather than the weak East. He brought in young talent and played it early because the older players that he had were poorly developed and not very talented. He won 6 regular season games his first year, 7 his second year, and will win 8 or 9 this year. That's tangible, recognizable, undeniable progress.

A lot of you guys if Ole Miss or Auburn fans would be ready to fire Malzahn and Friese since their losses lately.

No. Nice attempt at deflecting... but no. Both of those guys proved they could get it done both in building their programs AND coaching on game day... and they did it inside of 3 years.

BTW, I don't use Malzahn because he helped build the roster he's won with AND it was more talented than what Jones inherited. Not a good comparison at all. Others are better. Franklin is a good one. Freeze and potentially Bielema are the best.

 

[champyvol]

I know many of you are still upset following the game on Saturday, so am I. However, I do want to point out that due to the extreme youth of this football program, we won't really know what we have with Butch Jones until years 4 and 5. Giving the level of recruiting we are experiencing, you have to allow the coach to redshirt and develop guys for 3-4 years to have an accurate gauge of his coaching acumen. Only at that point will we be at a solid enough footing to truly compete with the rest of our conference.

As far as next year is concerned, we need to stay focused on improving. The schedule is about the same level of difficultly, so I would like to see us win seven. However, simply reaching a bowl game in back to back seasons would be a feat we haven't accomplished since 2009-2010.

I compare this to the rebuilding job Spurrier had at SC. It took him until year 6 to really break out at SC. I think the tradition and facilities at UT help to reduce that number to 4-5 years. Still, it will take time.

Overall, this is an unpopular call for patience. We are getting better, but it is going to take years to bring us back from where Dooley left us. (The worst coaching tenure in the history of our program)

i disagree with this. jones needs 8 or 9 wins next year or it is time to go. his coaching so far here has been pretty poor. the young talent doesn't really exist anymore as the men on the team really are not freshmen after all the games they have played. he will probably want a contract extension which he doesn't deserve as of yet.

 

[sjt18]

Also, any player we have that is any good will be gone after 2-3 years of playing. Then the young excuse is back--no need to redshirt anymore...kids just don't stay. Better get it done in year 3.

that's a very, very good point. If you get elite talent... then you best not make year 4 the year you expect success.

 

[Vol_is_Lyfe18]

Franklin inherited two solid NFL skill position players on offense in Zac Stacey and Jordan Matthews. That's better than what Jones had to start with. By Vandy standards, Bobby Johnson had recruited very well.

Wow, 2 NFL players. We had 3 that now start on NFL rosters. I know you said position, but when you're entire OL gets a shot at the NFL, you've at least got an okay situation.

And who cares if Bobby Johnson recruited well for "Vandy Standards?" That doesn't change that Franklin inherited a ****storm.

 

[oregonvol]

Another honest question. What were Franklin's OOC games vs Jones and what were the SEC records? I do believe Franklin had a better SEC record than us last year as we spotted them one with the loss. How about OOC. Saying "9 wins" can be somewhat misleading if we're playing Oregon and Oklahoma and they are playing TN School for The Blind.

He beat Georgia and Florida, with his back-up QB and a roster filled with 2 and 3 star recruits. According to most on here, Butch Jones needs 4 star upperclassmen 2-deep at every position before anyone should expect him to do the same.

 

[sjt18]

Butch Jones started 13 4-star recruits against James Franklin's Vanderbilt team last year. Many of them juniors or seniors. Do you know how many 4-star recruit starters James Franklin had? He had 1. This whole "James Franklin inherited a better situation than Butch Jones" excuse-making is just ridiculous.

Yeah but last year they were too slow... and installing a new system... and young at WR... and thin... and... and... and...

As I said earlier, if you are determined to find excuses... you'll find them.

 

[NorthDallas40]

He still got nine wins and he beat Flurdah at their place I believe.

OK sorry that doesn't answer the question and you know it. And yeah playing relative patsies compared to playing hard OOC matchups is an issue when all that matters is raw win count.

Discounting my question doesn't make it go away and is rather disingenious.

BUT, the answer is
Candy: Austin Peay (W), UMass (W), UAB(W), Wake Forest (W)
TN: Austin Peay (W), WKU (W), Oregon(L), South AB (W)

So in truth winning over us and our one tougher OOC game is only a two game spread. So we play a patsy and dont play Oregon and take care of business with Vandy and they go 8-4 and we go 7-5. They still beat us in straight up W/L though.

edit: and yeah, I know they still beat us so its 9-3 and 6-6, but this is all conjecture anyway. Got my answer, everybody go back to slapping each other around now.

 

[RollerVol]

I know many of you are still upset following the game on Saturday, so am I. However, I do want to point out that due to the extreme youth of this football program, we won't really know what we have with Butch Jones until years 4 and 5. Giving the level of recruiting we are experiencing, you have to allow the coach to redshirt and develop guys for 3-4 years to have an accurate gauge of his coaching acumen. Only at that point will we be at a solid enough footing to truly compete with the rest of our conference.

As far as next year is concerned, we need to stay focused on improving. The schedule is about the same level of difficultly, so I would like to see us win seven. However, simply reaching a bowl game in back to back seasons would be a feat we haven't accomplished since 2009-2010.

I compare this to the rebuilding job Spurrier had at SC. It took him until year 6 to really break out at SC. I think the tradition and facilities at UT help to reduce that number to 4-5 years. Still, it will take time.

Overall, this is an unpopular call for patience. We are getting better, but it is going to take years to bring us back from where Dooley left us. (The worst coaching tenure in the history of our program)

Nice and I definitely agree. Patience doesn't play very well on this site with some people. Too bad. :salute:

GO VOLS!

 

[oregonvol]

This.

Bielema is overachieving at this point, IMO, especially in a brutal SEC West. And good for him. Exception--not the rule.

So, just so I have this straight...

Exception: Bielema at Arkansas, Malzahn at Auburn, Freeze at Ole Miss, Franklin at Vanderbilt

Rule: Us

Damn, it would be nice to be the exception just once, for a change.

 

[Vol_is_Lyfe18]

OK sorry that doesn't answer the question and you know it. And yeah playing relative patsies compared to playing hard OOC matchups is an issue when all that matters is raw win count.

Discounting my question doesn't make it go away and is rather disingenious.

BUT, the answer is
Candy: Austin Peay (W), UMass (W), UAB(W), Wake Forest (W)
TN: Austin Peay (W), WKU (W), Oregon(L), South AB (W)

So in truth winning over us and our one tougher OOC game is only a two game spread. So we play a patsy and dont play Oregon and take care of business with Vandy and they go 8-4 and we go 7-5. They still beat us in straight up W/L though.

edit: and yeah, I know they still beat us so its 9-3 and 6-6, but this is all conjecture anyway. Got my answer, everybody go back to slapping each other around now.

So you're using one OOC game as a measuring stick? He still managed five SEC wins, while we managed two.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Why are we the only program in America where coaches need 5 years before they can be evaluated? How often do coaches show very little improvement over 4 years and then suddenly make a big leap in year 5? Why does Butch Jones need more time than coaches at Vanderbilt, Ole Miss, Miss State, Arkansas, etc?

If your coach needs a roster stocked with 4 star recruits and 5th year seniors in order to field a competitive squad then your coach is terrible.

From this pits we know two things about you:

1). You obviously just don't understand what has happened to the program since Fulmer was fired

2). You don't like Butch

 

[sjt18]

Franklin inherited two solid NFL skill position players on offense in Zac Stacey and Jordan Matthews. That's better than what Jones had to start with. By Vandy standards, Bobby Johnson had recruited very well.

Do WHAT?!?!?!

Jones inherited 4 upperclass OL's with NFL futures... 3 of them are currently STARTING. I have not kept up with him but Neal was on a practice roster at one point. McCullers has played for the Steelers. He inherited one of the most prolific LB's in UT history. He inherited a Jr QB and a highly recruited back up.

There is absolutely NO comparison between the situations. Franklin's was much worse.

I will give you a teaser. There IS a good argument to be made here... but talent isn't it.