Years 4 and 5

[Vol_is_Lyfe18]

From this pits we know two things about you:

1). You obviously just don't understand what has happened to the program since Fulmer was fired

2). You don't like Butch

You refute by assuming things about him. Nice

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

There sure isn't any middle ground with Jones and most fans. Seems to be two primary schools of thought with a few treading the water in the middle.

"Should fire him after the Missouri loss. "

"Hey, we can't really judge him until Year 23."

This team had a real chance to take a MAJOR step forward against UGA and FL this year and blew it.

He gets next year to take a major step forward then all bets are off IMO.

 

[sjt18]

From this pits we know two things about you:

1). You obviously just don't understand what has happened to the program since Fulmer was fired

I understand EXACTLY what's happened since Fulmer was fired... and the 6 years or so before he was fired as he was running the program downhill.

Kiffin nor Dooley fixed the program... but Fulmer is the primary one that broke it. The roster issues started with his failure to effectively recruit in his last 3 or 4 years... and are only now starting to be corrected in any significant way.

2). You don't like Butch

I DO like Butch... but my eyes aren't closed. He's done a lot of good... but he's come up short on some things too. And a program rebuild does not have to take 5 years. In fact, it is closer to the truth that it CAN'T take that long because program image and recruiting will suffer if wins don't come sooner than that.

 

[Wildasamink16]

Why are we the only program in America where coaches need 5 years before they can be evaluated? How often do coaches show very little improvement over 4 years and then suddenly make a big leap in year 5? Why does Butch Jones need more time than coaches at Vanderbilt, Ole Miss, Miss State, Arkansas, etc?

If your coach needs a roster stocked with 4 star recruits and 5th year seniors in order to field a competitive squad then your coach is terrible.

How many years was Dooley here......

 

[NorthDallas40]

So you're using one OOC game as a measuring stick? He still managed five SEC wins, while we managed two.

No dammit. I'm not. FFS read my last edit.

I started by posting a question.

You didn't answer it and just offered an excuse. Like it or not you DIDN'T. So I said that and went and got the data myself. And then I speculated that IF we had equal patsies and IF we took care of business against Vandy (there is no valid reason for TN to lose to Vandy.... EVER!) they still beat us straight up on win count.

In a straight up with all "patsies" being equal they still beat us by one game. I didnt't justify or excuse anything. I just answered my own freaking question.

 

[LWSVOL]

So Saban can take over from Shula who was little if any better than Dooley... and win in year two.

Freeze can take over a complete train wreck at Ole Miss and compete for the West in year 3.

Sumlin takes over for a guy who couldn't win and didn't even recruit all that well and wins right away.

Franklin takes over a "never was" program at Vandy and sets program high water marks within 3 years.

But at UT with some of the best facilities in the country... not only do you have to act as if you are rebuilding the roster from scratch... you have to wait until the first class is either graduated or RS SRs before expecting results.... ?

Gotcha.

Shula won 10 games 2 years before Saban was hired. Had a base roster much better than what Jones got (see Below)

Freeze's record is 7-6, 8-5, 8-3 looking at maybe or 8-5?? Very likely to be 8-4 this weekend. Possible Jones could be at 8 in his 3rd year. (Personally I think 7 is ceiling but I could be wrong and 8 doable). Nutt had also won 9 games 3 years before Freeze arrived so roster better than what Jones came to.

A&M won 9 games and was division champions 2 years before Sumlin arrived. Had a base roster much better than what CBJ got (see below)

Do we really want to discuss the Vanderbilt anomaly? We should never compare UT to Vandy IMO.

As for Jones:

the last 10 win season at Tennessee was 2007, 6 years before Jones was hired.

3 head coaches in that 6 year period. 5 S&C coaches. 35 different assistants.

Horrible recruiting from the head coach and staff prior to Jones arriving.

JMO (and you are welcome to disagree) but Jones arrived at a situation no where near what those you named came into.

Frankly, Jones and staff do have to improve their game day coaching. They do make decisions that raise some questions. I would not debate that with other fans because I agree with their thoughts on that. Recruiting is definitely in the right direction. The roster is a LONG way from being competitive in this conference though. That is due to those proceeding coaches.

Valid comparison would be a successful SEC program that the coach walked into similar circumstances.

 

[sjt18]

How many years was Dooley here......

Three. And not a soul that I have seen and especially not Oregonvol (who I disagree with at times too) has said Jones should get one game less than 3 seasons. But within that 3 seasons he needs to prove he can win some games. He missed opportunities this year to get some of those wins. Over two years he's missed enough to bring his gameday ability into question.

 

[BowlBrother85]

Do WHAT?!?!?!

Jones inherited 4 upperclass OL's with NFL futures... 3 of them are currently STARTING. I have not kept up with him but Neal was on a practice roster at one point. McCullers has played for the Steelers. He inherited one of the most prolific LB's in UT history. He inherited a Jr QB and a highly recruited back up.

There is absolutely NO comparison between the situations. Franklin's was much worse.

I will give you a teaser. There IS a good argument to be made here... but talent isn't it.

Yes, I was aware this would circle around to a discussion of our supposedly All-World Oline that never could run block worth a flip while they were here. I am glad to see them doing well but there is also a reason only James was drafted. I stand by the point of my post that Jones didn't inherit two playmakers as good as Stacey and Matthews and that Franklin's predecessor Bobby Johnson was much better than Derek Dooley and left behind a better foundation to build from at least in the very short run...Having said that of course we should have beaten Vandy last year.

 

[Vol_is_Lyfe18]

No dammit. I'm not. FFS read my last edit.

I started by posting a question.

You didn't answer it and just offered an excuse. Like it or not you DIDN'T. So I said that and went and got the data myself. And then I speculated that IF we had equal patsies and IF we took care of business against Vandy (there is no valid reason for TN to lose to Vandy.... EVER!) they still beat us straight up on win count.

In a straight up with all "patsies" being equal they still beat us by one game. I didnt't justify or excuse anything. I just answered my own freaking question.

Chill out, you act like I sit their waiting for you to make an edit.

I agree there is NO valid reason to Vandy.

 

[VOLINVONORE]

So, just so I have this straight...

Exception: Bielema at Arkansas, Malzahn at Auburn, Freeze at Ole Miss, Franklin at Vanderbilt

Rule: Us

Damn, it would be nice to be the exception just once, for a change.

One would hope that posters would have an IQ of at least 70 before they post on sports boards.

 

[Vol_is_Lyfe18]

One would hope that posters would have an IQ of at least 70 before they post on sports boards.

One would hope that posters could actually add to the argument before making such an asinine statement.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Chill out, you act like I sit their waiting for you to make an edit.

I agree there is NO valid reason to Vandy.

Dude, you had my edit in your quote. You're the one needing to chill out here and several others but whatever. Go read the two posts (that I regret making now...) earlier in this thread they had two questions only and offered no excuses.

1. What was the class seniority stackup of the coaches being presented as "getting it done" vs TN/Butch
2. What was Vandy's OOC schedule as compared to ours since Franklin is getting thrown up a lot in here. And he should be, the guy is a total p***k but he can coach and recuit.

I still don't know the answer to 1 as that one will be a PITA to data mine. I found my own answer on 2 and actually pointed out the data lines up with your arguement if you'll stop internet yelling at me and just read what I posted.

 

[FEARinSEC]

Butch Jones started 13 4-star recruits against James Franklin's Vanderbilt team last year. Many of them juniors or seniors. Do you know how many 4-star recruit starters James Franklin had? He had 1. This whole "James Franklin inherited a better situation than Butch Jones" excuse-making is just ridiculous.

N/M, would be a waste of time.....

 

[Vol_is_Lyfe18]

Dude, you had my edit in your quote. You're the one needing to chill out here and several others but whatever. Go read the two posts (that I regret making now...) earlier in this thread they had two questions only and offered no excuses.

1. What was the class seniority stackup of the coaches being presented as "getting it done" vs TN/Butch
2. What was Vandy's OOC schedule as compared to ours since Franklin is getting thrown up a lot in here. And he should be, the guy is a total p***k but he can coach and recuit.

I still don't know the answer to 1 as that one will be a PITA to data mine. I found my own answer on 2 and actually pointed out the data lines up with your arguement if you'll stop internet yelling at me and just read what I posted.

You can't accuse me of internet yelling before reading your post befotr this one. Go on dude.

 

[NorthDallas40]

You can't accuse me of internet yelling before reading your post befotr this one. Go on dude.

what?

edit: Jesus... nevermind. FAHR BUTCH!!!!!!

 

[Vol_is_Lyfe18]

what?

It's not that hard. Yes, I made a spelling mistake. Move past it.

Edit: Nvm as well. Keep Butch.

 

[sjt18]

Shula won 10 games 2 years before Saban was hired. Had a base roster much better than what Jones got (see Below)

Base roster? How do you judge THAT? Saban culled a bunch of guys.

He won 10 that year... sandwiched between 4, 6, and 6. Only 3 of those regular season wins came against teams that finished with a winning record... and two of them only won 7... and one of those was So Miss. The combined record of the teams he beat that year was 40-56.

Freeze's record is 7-6, 8-5, 8-3 looking at maybe or 8-5?? Very likely to be 8-4 this weekend. Possible Jones could be at 8 in his 3rd year. (Personally I think 7 is ceiling but I could be wrong and 8 doable). Nutt had also won 9 games 3 years before Freeze arrived so roster better than what Jones came to.

No. It simply wasn't. You above all others here should really be better than turning a blind eye and making excuses. Even if it was... Jones obviously does not play in the West nor can he match Freeze's first two years.

A&M won 9 games and was division champions 2 years before Sumlin arrived. Had a base roster much better than what CBJ got (see below)

They tied for the Big 12 South... with Texas in the throes of Brown's end. It was a good year. Sumlin STILL didn't inherit a great roster and certainly not enough better to explain the difference in results completely.

Do we really want to discuss the Vanderbilt anomaly? We should never compare UT to Vandy IMO.

Yes. We really, really do. As long as people are trying to argue that Jones was just too deep in the hole when he started to win more than 7 games in his first 3 years... then what Franklin did at Vandy is absolutely relevant.

As for Jones:

the last 10 win season at Tennessee was 2007, 6 years before Jones was hired.

3 head coaches in that 6 year period. 5 S&C coaches. 35 different assistants.

Horrible recruiting from the head coach and staff prior to Jones arriving.

JMO (and you are welcome to disagree) but Jones arrived at a situation no where near what those you named came into.

I have NEVER argued he came into a good situation. Only that it does not take the 4 and 5 year rebuilds for a coach like the one UT needs to turn things around as evidenced by W's.

Frankly, Jones and staff do have to improve their game day coaching. They do make decisions that raise some questions. I would not debate that with other fans because I agree with their thoughts on that. Recruiting is definitely in the right direction. The roster is a LONG way from being competitive in this conference though. That is due to those proceeding coaches.

Disagree. A coach should be able to bring in enough of "his" players within 3 classes to be "competitive"..... if he's ever going to be competitive.

 

[NorthDallas40]

No, I actually don't understand what the hell you said. Not a slam, I dont get it maybe I'm just dense don't know. I'm not the freaking grammar police that is weaksauce. I'm not trying to argue with you either I asked two questions about what I thought was at the core of the arguement in this whole damn Godforsaken thread.

Just FAHR EVERYBODY and lets start over.

I'm out.

 

[morristown vol]

Butch walked into a train wreck and we all knew it take some time,this year a bowl
game and next year we'll win 7 or 8 games with a chance at sec east,then the next
year we'll be back on top.If your not willing to wait come back in two years.

 

[sjt18]

Yes, I was aware this would circle around to a discussion of our supposedly All-World Oline that never could run block worth a flip while they were here. I am glad to see them doing well but there is also a reason only James was drafted. I stand by the point of my post that Jones didn't inherit two playmakers as good as Stacey and Matthews and that Franklin's predecessor Bobby Johnson was much better than Derek Dooley and left behind a better foundation to build from at least in the very short run...Having said that of course we should have beaten Vandy last year.

Please name another program with 3 of their starting OL's from last year currently starting in the NFL...

Excuse making WREAKS of a loser mentality. Some folks need to decide whether they are Jones fans or UT fans. I like him. I want him to succeed. But my first loyalty is to UT... not Jones.

 

[AllVolinGA]

Legion of the Miserables! You don't like Butch, we get it.

 

[BeecherVol]

Legion of the Miserables! You don't like Butch, we get it.

I like the guy personally. I dont think anybody dislikes him in that sense, be hard press to explain that one.

I think a lot of people are equating criticism as disliking and are getting confused.

 

[LWSVOL]

Base roster? How do you judge THAT? Saban culled a bunch of guys.

He won 10 that year... sandwiched between 4, 6, and 6. Only 3 of those regular season wins came against teams that finished with a winning record... and two of them only won 7... and one of those was So Miss. The combined record of the teams he beat that year was 40-56.

No. It simply wasn't. You above all others here should really be better than turning a blind eye and making excuses. Even if it was... Jones obviously does not play in the West nor can he match Freeze's first two years.

They tied for the Big 12 South... with Texas in the throes of Brown's end. It was a good year. Sumlin STILL didn't inherit a great roster and certainly not enough better to explain the difference in results completely.

Yes. We really, really do. As long as people are trying to argue that Jones was just too deep in the hole when he started to win more than 7 games in his first 3 years... then what Franklin did at Vandy is absolutely relevant.

I have NEVER argued he came into a good situation. Only that it does not take the 4 and 5 year rebuilds for a coach like the one UT needs to turn things around as evidenced by W's.



Disagree. A coach should be able to bring in enough of "his" players within 3 classes to be "competitive"..... if he's ever going to be competitive.

People have different competitive interpretations. What is yours? Had closer games this year so competitiveness improved?

He needs to not lose games that should be wins, Vandy and Florida come to mind. Has to get over that for sure. and had he won those two, this discussion likely not happening.

I'm not turning a blind eye. I'm only debating the comparison of the programs you mentioned. Were they similar situations or not. I think not, you think yes.

One other comparison I want to review is the first recruiting classes for each coach. I'm not sure those classes should count for any of them. Doubt many of the kids in those classes contribute. I'll check sometime.

 

[FLSTF-VOL]

Also, any player we have that is any good will be gone after 2-3 years of playing. Then the young excuse is back--no need to redshirt anymore...kids just don't stay. Better get it done in year 3.

This. The whole idea that Butch is not required to win until he gets "his" recruits is complete BS. By year 4 and 5 his first two classes will be gone. Its gonna be a perpetual "wait until next year" type of scenario based on the logic of excuses being made.

 

[AllVolinGA]

And I think the criticism is based on their perceived idea of how a football game/season should go, rather than the reality of what actually occurs. The reality is Mz was better than us Saturday night. Their players made the plays when they had to, ours did not. It happens. Constant criticism is not sign of liking someone.