Years 4 and 5

[BeecherVol]

Realistically it's going to take 8-9 recruiting classes for Butch to get his players and system in place. That's just where we are at this point. Blame in on Dooley and Fulmer.

Negative.
10-12 minimum.

 

[vol66]

Now if you really want to drive your point home.....list the Jr's and Srs

It blows my mind that so many posters here cannot understand the state of things inherited by Jones. Everyone wants to blindly look at recruiting rankings over the years without looking into all the defections and etc.

I could drive it home by doing that but I prefer just to put out info and let people make up their own minds.

To your point...LSU has 8 Frosh on their two deep and 20 juniors and seniors. That doesn't tell the whole story. In the last two years LSU has lost 18 players coming out early for the NFL draft. DESPITE always having great classes, it's too much to overcome in the SEC West. That is why they are 7-4, 3-4 (SEC).

 

[TennesseeTaz]

Sums it up pretty good. But low football IQ posters like oregonvol only know Ws and Ls. they're not smart enough to incorporate facts that give context.

:yes:

 

[Besteresque]

So you're saying that James Franklin inherited more talent than Butch Jones? Seriously? Are you saying that James Franklin's 9 win teams from the past two years had more talent on their roster than Butch Jones has had in either of his 2 years here? That's ridiculous. If anyone was fielding a JV squad, it was Franklin.

I never mentioned Franklin. But since you brought him up, I think he did a very nice job while he was at Vandy. However, their schedule was never difficult. They played no one OOC; last year their most challenging OOC opponent was either Wake Forest or UAB.

They did beat UT, UGA, and FL last year. However, all three teams were decimated by injuries at that point they played Vandy. Fl won 4, TN won 5, and GA fell apart down the stretch.

I do think you bring up a good point about OOC scheduling. I would agree with you that Vandy had that right. Make your OOC games 4 W's. When you are building a program, people only care about Ws and Ls. They ultimatley don't care whether you beat Oklahoma or Wake Forest.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

I understand EXACTLY what's happened since Fulmer was fired... and the 6 years or so before he was fired as he was running the program downhill.

Kiffin nor Dooley fixed the program... but Fulmer is the primary one that broke it. The roster issues started with his failure to effectively recruit in his last 3 or 4 years... and are only now starting to be corrected in any significant way.



I DO like Butch... but my eyes aren't closed. He's done a lot of good... but he's come up short on some things too. And a program rebuild does not have to take 5 years. In fact, it is closer to the truth that it CAN'T take that long because program image and recruiting will suffer if wins don't come sooner than that.

Um my post wasn't directed towards you.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Realistically it's going to take 8-9 recruiting classes for Butch to get his players and system in place. That's just where we are at this point. Blame in on Dooley and Fulmer.

Dude you are seriously deluding yoursel.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Mike Tomlin said it best. "Excuses are the tools of the incompetent."

Huge difference between excuses and facts. But you don't know anything about that.

 

[VolFan4Life87]

So Saban can take over from Shula who was little if any better than Dooley... and win in year two.

Freeze can take over a complete train wreck at Ole Miss and compete for the West in year 3.

Sumlin takes over for a guy who couldn't win and didn't even recruit all that well and wins right away.

Franklin takes over a "never was" program at Vandy and sets program high water marks within 3 years.

But at UT with some of the best facilities in the country... not only do you have to act as if you are rebuilding the roster from scratch... you have to wait until the first class is either graduated or RS SRs before expecting results.... ?

Gotcha.

Preach on!!

 

[sjt18]

People have different competitive interpretations. What is yours? Had closer games this year so competitiveness improved?

Yes. I am more pleased that there weren't any games that got completely out of hand.

Competitive IS relative to where a program is. Taking over a program that was run into the mud by a once great coach who failed to see his own end is tough. Then you had two more guys spin the tires for awhile making it that much tougher to pull it out.

So competitive in year one with that roster to me would have been more on the order of what we've seen this year. I actually said last year that I thought that team was a 7 win team and THIS ONE was a 6 win team because of the loss of experience. I'm not pleased with some of the "hows" they've lost... but if they beat Vandy it will meet what I believe should be the minimum standard.

Next year, competitive should have an ENTIRELY different definition. For the most part, he won't be fielding Dooley's players any more... at least not the ones who might hold the team back. He will go from having one of the least experienced 2 deeps to one of the more experienced two deeps.

The OL could have 3 RS Srs that are decent players. Hopefully they'll find or develop a LT by then. That's one of my bigger disappointments btw. They knew from the time they arrived that they'd need a LT to start this season and did not have an adequate solution. Seniors Howard and Pearson will lead one of the more talented AND experienced WR corps in the SEC if not the country. Kamara, Hurd, and perhaps Scott will make a very good RB group. Dobbs will be back with experience. UT returns all three of their most effective TE's and one will be a SR.

On D, UT will have 5 quality Srs leading a very talented group of players. They won't "have" to play any first year players though I'd be surprised if McKenzie doesn't come in ready to play. They should be deep and talented at LB and DB. The DL should continue to improve. UT loses only 3 contributors and except for AJ should replace them with better players.

So here's your answer after the justification... 8 wins should be the minimum and the Vols should be in the conversation for the East.

He needs to not lose games that should be wins, Vandy and Florida come to mind. Has to get over that for sure. and had he won those two, this discussion likely not happening.

No question but honestly I want to see something more akin to what Pinkel has done and is doing. He wins with players with less talent than many if not most of the teams he plays. Mizzou fans still don't act like SEC fans... I live in MO. But one thing that seems to be common in the ones that follow football is that they believe Pinkel will develop players into a good team... and they don't have to sweat NSD to believe that.

One other comparison I want to review is the first recruiting classes for each coach. I'm not sure those classes should count for any of them. Doubt many of the kids in those classes contribute. I'll check sometime.

Similar is not the same. None of those situations were "the same". Some were better. Some were worse... like Vandy. Those besides Vandy though were close enough for comparison sake.

Ole Miss is probably the closest and you'd be splitting hairs to say which guy was set up the worst. Nutt left Freeze a class that finished 40th according to Rivals. It was probably worse than what Dooley left Jones. The vast majority of Ole Miss' contributors this year were guys that Freeze has brought in.

That is what I hope Jones replicates next year... yep even if Ole Miss ends up winning 8. BTW, they don't lose many contributors either. Ole Miss was in the conversation. They faded... but were there. I think that would be competitive enough if Jones can pull that off next fall. Of course, I would LOVE for him to take charge of the still weak East... but just being relevant for the first time in awhile would be progress.

 

[BJWeeks]

If Butch only wins 6 next year with the talent that we have then HOT SEAT will be coming

 

[Persian Vol]

So Saban can take over from Shula who was little if any better than Dooley... and win in year two.

Freeze can take over a complete train wreck at Ole Miss and compete for the West in year 3.

Sumlin takes over for a guy who couldn't win and didn't even recruit all that well and wins right away.

Franklin takes over a "never was" program at Vandy and sets program high water marks within 3 years.

But at UT with some of the best facilities in the country... not only do you have to act as if you are rebuilding the roster from scratch... you have to wait until the first class is either graduated or RS SRs before expecting results.... ?

Gotcha.

I do not agree. If Dooley signs the at least 8 offensive linemen instead of 2 between the 2 year span several years ago, we're looking at a 9-3 football team. The other schools didn't a have the youth that we have, or a an incredibly thin offensive line that was injured throughout the course of the season into disarray. I know people hate the term youth, but when your putting out 7 true freshman against 22-23 year old men who have been in a program for half a decade, then it certainly does play a factor. Our situation is unique. We're not auburn, Alabama, or ole miss, so why do people keep trying to compare us to their programs?

 

[Jjac106623]

So you're saying that James Franklin inherited more talent than Butch Jones? Seriously? Are you saying that James Franklin's 9 win teams from the past two years had more talent on their roster than Butch Jones has had in either of his 2 years here? That's ridiculous. If anyone was fielding a JV squad, it was Franklin.

I don't think anyone is saying Franklin inherited a great roster but I do think Bobby Johnson got him some really good foundational pieces like Jordan Matthews. I think Vandy had best player on field last year with JM. If you notice franklin didn't recruit well (not looking at ranking but what's on the field) but was able to win with BJs classes. I think vandy had better talent at some positions when JF started as opposed to BUtch.

 

[Jjac106623]

Yes. I am more pleased that there weren't any games that got completely out of hand.

Competitive IS relative to where a program is. Taking over a program that was run into the mud by a once great coach who failed to see his own end is tough. Then you had two more guys spin the tires for awhile making it that much tougher to pull it out.


So competitive in year one with that roster to me would have been more on the order of what we've seen this year. I actually said last year that I thought that team was a 7 win team and THIS ONE was a 6 win team because of the loss of experience. I'm not pleased with some of the "hows" they've lost... but if they beat Vandy it will meet what I believe should be the minimum standard.

Next year, competitive should have an ENTIRELY different definition. For the most part, he won't be fielding Dooley's players any more... at least not the ones who might hold the team back. He will go from having one of the least experienced 2 deeps to one of the more experienced two deeps.

The OL could have 3 RS Srs that are decent players. Hopefully they'll find or develop a LT by then. That's one of my bigger disappointments btw. They knew from the time they arrived that they'd need a LT to start this season and did not have an adequate solution. Seniors Howard and Pearson will lead one of the more talented AND experienced WR corps in the SEC if not the country. Kamara, Hurd, and perhaps Scott will make a very good RB group. Dobbs will be back with experience. UT returns all three of their most effective TE's and one will be a SR.

On D, UT will have 5 quality Srs leading a very talented group of players. They won't "have" to play any first year players though I'd be surprised if McKenzie doesn't come in ready to play. They should be deep and talented at LB and DB. The DL should continue to improve. UT loses only 3 contributors and except for AJ should replace them with better players.

So here's your answer after the justification... 8 wins should be the minimum and the Vols should be in the conversation for the East.

No question but honestly I want to see something more akin to what Pinkel has done and is doing. He wins with players with less talent than many if not most of the teams he plays. Mizzou fans still don't act like SEC fans... I live in MO. But one thing that seems to be common in the ones that follow football is that they believe Pinkel will develop players into a good team... and they don't have to sweat NSD to believe that.

Similar is not the same. None of those situations were "the same". Some were better. Some were worse... like Vandy. Those besides Vandy though were close enough for comparison sake.

Ole Miss is probably the closest and you'd be splitting hairs to say which guy was set up the worst. Nutt left Freeze a class that finished 40th according to Rivals. It was probably worse than what Dooley left Jones. The vast majority of Ole Miss' contributors this year were guys that Freeze has brought in.

That is what I hope Jones replicates next year... yep even if Ole Miss ends up winning 8. BTW, they don't lose many contributors either. Ole Miss was in the conversation. They faded... but were there. I think that would be competitive enough if Jones can pull that off next fall. Of course, I would LOVE for him to take charge of the still weak East... but just being relevant for the first time in awhile would be progress.

Everyone wants to compare Ole Miss but after they lose Saturday, they'll be 8-4 in year 3. Most are saying 8-4 next year for Butch. What's the difference? People seem to love Freese but if he were here everyone would be on his case bc he's only gonna be 8-4. Butch is doing a good job, we've lost 2 games we should've won since he's been here (UV last yr and UF this year) but we've won games we weren't supposed to as well (USC both years) . UF still has more talent than us and while I think we had more talent than vandy last year they were more experienced and had best player on the field with J Matthews.

 

[MWAVolfan]

Everyone wants to compare Ole Miss but after they lose Saturday, they'll be 8-4 in year 3. Most are saying 8-4 next year for Butch. What's the difference? People seem to love Freese but if he were here everyone would be on his case bc he's only gonna be 8-4. Butch is doing a good job, we've lost 2 games we should've won since he's been here (UV last yr and UF this year) but we've won games we weren't supposed to as well (USC both years) . UF still has more talent than us and while I think we had more talent than vandy last year they were more experienced and had best player on the field with J Matthews.

8-4 in the west is a much bigger accomplishment than 8-4 in the east. No matter how you want to spin it, you cant deny that the SEC east was handed to us on a silver platter and we bungled it in an epic and disappointing way.

Florida sucks and just fired their coach, yet we lost what was probably the easiest game we will ever play against Florida when the crowd was at a fever pitch

We should have beaten Georgia two years in a row but screwed it up both times.

We should have played way less conservatively at home against a Mizzou team that everyone knows is a fraud and playing well above their pay grade. We were favored by 3 over a nationally ranked team. I have never seen a team recover two onside kicks and screw up both of them.

Truly good coaches find ways to win games. Butch Jones continually finds ways to lose games.

South Carolina is the only exception. How we won that game I dont know, but if you are measuring progress from year one to year 2 then the fair assessment (assuming we do beat Vandy) is that Tennessee did the bare minimum plus one (beating USC) in a year when they probably should have finished second or even first in the SEC east (based on 20/20 hindsight).

Next year Jones has to find a way to win these games and make a significant impact with all the great recruits he is pulling in.

Moral victories dont count any more IMO. We have to get back to beating Florida and Georgia and continue to beat USC. Knowing that the landscape of the SEC east is so conducive to us winning I just dont see less than 8-4 next year as a good year. We have eight home games. Get it done.

 

[KBVol]

Realistically it's going to take 8-9 recruiting classes for Butch to get his players and system in place. That's just where we are at this point. Blame in on Dooley and Fulmer.

8 or 9?? Surely you're kidding. 8 or 9??

 

[Nationdom]

8 or 9?? Surely you're kidding. 8 or 9??

I was joking. I m really bummed out about losing to missouri. I still think we should have beaten them by three scores.

 

[The Tall Gguy]

I can't stand moving lines in the sand as to when we will be back. Drives me crazy.

 

[KBVol]

I was joking. I m really bummed out about losing to missouri. I still think we should have beaten them by three scores.

Just checking. We just weren't ready to beat a team like Missouri who was physically dominant on the line of scrimmage imo.

 

[TGVol]

Shoulda used blue font

Didn't want to leave you with nothing meaningful to contribute to this thread.