'16 TN LB Tim Hart (FORMER UT commit 6/26/15)

#901
#901
junder13 said:
I only started posting in this thread because I was bothered by the overwhelming response in favor of the coaching staff's decision to drop Hart (allegedly). I don't post often and won't in the future.

Again, it's not the situation that bothers me as much as the one-sided reaction. I just see a continuing pattern of indifference to questionable decisions from people in positions of authority. I see a lack of accountability from those in power who make these decisions. I see a turning a blind eye from the few who are knowledgeable on such abuses of power and a herd mindset of accepting this narrative from the masses who read comprised "news" reporting on such topics. While this recruiting "grievance" is penance compared to things in life that truly matter (Operation Fast and Furious, Benghazi, Citizens United, Trans-Pacific Free Trade Agreement, drone attack on a wedding in Yemini, and countless other recent examples around the world), it is like a said, a microcosm of society today.

I have no desire to make this political but it is the bigger picture that concerns me when I see people react to injustice with complete apathy. I have no agenda but simply to provide the alternate view in case there are others who think, "Why is no one else bothered by this?". Those people are not alone. And it's not a moral superiority complex nor a personal crusade. I don't care how others view me. I just want balance and accountability.
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Dude, this is an anonymous message board. Even a cursory review of this board will show that a host of opinions are expressed on a host of topics on a daily basis. There is no oppressed, silent minority that need you to remind them that they "are not alone." Therefore, if your purpose in making these posts, which smack of sanctimony and condescension, is to be the white knight for all who are somehow afraid to express their opinion, it seems that you have wasted a lot of time and effort.

As for Tim Hart, he should be fine. This "injustice" word that keeps being bandied about does not seem to apply here. Mr. Hart attends the most exclusive and expensive private school in Memphis. While I am not a huge fan of that school and find its graduates to be a little on the snobby side, there can be little doubt that its graduates (the dozen or so that I have met) have been the recipients of a fine education. Assuming Mr. Hart availed himself of these opportunities during his time at MUS, I have no doubt that he can and will find an opportunity that meets his educational and athletic requirements or desires. Will he have to wait? Possibly. Will a wait be devastating to his future educational or athletic prospects? Most likely not. I wish Mr. Hart good luck in his future endeavors.
 
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#902
#902
ODTVOL said:
Dude, this is an anonymous message board. Even a cursory review of this board will show that a host of opinions are expressed on a host of topics on a daily basis. There is no oppressed, silent minority that need you to remind them that they "are not alone." Therefore, if your purpose in making these posts, which smack of sanctimony and condescension, is to be the white knight for all who are somehow afraid to express their opinion, it seems that you have wasted a lot of time and effort.

As for Tim Hart, he should be fine. This "injustice" word that keeps being bandied about does not seem to apply here. Mr. Hart attends the most exclusive and expensive private school in Memphis. While I am not a huge fan of that school and find its graduates to be a little on the snobby side, there can be little doubt that its graduates (the dozen or so that I have met) have been the recipients of a fine education. Assuming Mr. Hart availed himself of these opportunities during his time at MUS, I have no doubt that he can and will find an opportunity that meets his educational and athletic requirements or desires. Will he have to wait? Possibly. Will a wait be devastating to his future educational or athletic prospects? Most likely not. I wish Mr. Hart good luck in his future endeavors.
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Come on man. Words do hurt after all.
 
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#903
#903
junder13 said:
All of your points are fair but you are still conjecturing just like you are accusing me of doing. And, yes, the other side has made an assertion -- a blueshirt was offered according to VQ. Unless they are purely conjecturing than that information was leaked to them by people in the know. Otherwise they would be comprising their position with the staff as media/reporters. As stated earlier, there appears to have been little to no communication between the two sides for quite some time, which is not the course a staff would take with a prospect they wanted on campus. Therefore, I am skeptical they acted responsibly in rescinding his offer two weeks before NSD. What evidence do you have for any of your conjectures?
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Although speculation and conjecture do not require evidence, unlike assertions, I'll address your rant one point at a time:

You are still conjecturing just like you are accusing me of doing.
I'm not accusing you of conjecture. I'm saying that you're asserting, as fact, that the staff screwed the kid.

And, yes, the other side has made an assertion -- a blueshirt was offered according to VQ.
This assumes facts not in evidence. That assertion did not come from the staff. As you said, it came from VQ. Maybe the kid, his family, or his HS coach told VQ it was a blueshirt offer. Maybe someone in the AD told VQ. Maybe VQ just made it up. You cannot say, for sure, how VQ came by that info. You're assuming it came from the AD, and asserting it as fact.

I am skeptical they acted responsibly in rescinding his offer two weeks before NSD.
There's no evidence they rescinded the offer. You're assuming they did and asserting it as fact.


These are the only facts we have:
1) Hart received an offer.
2) Hart never took a visit.
3) Hart decommitted.

Conjecture and speculation do not require proof. Assertions do. I'm saying that there are many possible scenarios, including the one that Hart described. Because of the very credible possibility that he may not have had an unconditional offer, I've decided to keep my mind open and withhold criticism of the staff. You, on the other hand, are confusing opinion with fact by asserting that Butch rescinded an unconditional offer.
 
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#904
#904
junder13 said:
This has nothing to do with moral superiority. Nice deflection. It's about whether it's acceptable or not. Some view it as unacceptable (or at least irresponsible) behavior by people who represent the state and state university. Others view it as acceptable and the nature of the beast as long as the program returns to prominence. I doubt the former are puffing their chest out at the latter. It's an unanimous message board anyway. But these things matter to people who are passionate about UT football, no matter which side of the fence they are on. The fact that most of us have never met Hart has no bearing on how we feel about the situation.
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The problem with this interminable argument is precisely the insistence by some to frame it as about 'what side of the fence you are on'.

Try taking a wider view. I personally don't care for the 'college football is a business' argument. It's also about educating young men and shaping a university culture. Having said that, what it indisputably has in common with business is that it's about competition. Even the 'it's immoral to tease young men with scholarship offers' crowd will acknowledge this.

Why then does anyone suppose the competition should start in spring practice? How does it serve a young man to have his offer honoured in February only to be buried on a depth chart for four years two months later? Better for the coaches to give him options before that happens rather than have him transfer and lose a year when he is recruited over.

Tim Hart is going to get a free education and a chance to contribute at a decent school He wouldn't have played at UT. I wish him well.
 
#905
#905
True North Vol said:
The problem with this interminable argument is precisely the insistence by some to frame it as about 'what side of the fence you are on'.

Try taking a wider view. I personally don't care for the 'college football is a business' argument. It's also about educating young men and shaping a university culture. Having said that, what it indisputably has in common with business is that it's about competition. Even the 'it's immoral to tease young men with scholarship offers' crowd will acknowledge this.

Why then does anyone suppose the competition should start in spring practice? How does it serve a young man to have his offer honoured in February only to be buried on a depth chart for four years two months later? Better for the coaches to give him options before that happens rather than have him transfer and lose a year when he is recruited over.

Tim Hart is going to get a free education and a chance to contribute at a decent school He wouldn't have played at UT. I wish him well.
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If its true that he "wouldn't have played at UT", then why compromise with a blueshirt offer, as we allegedly did? He would have still gone on scholarship, according to the media tied closest to the staff.

You have no more an idea of his likelihood to contribute in the future as the next couch recruitnik (I would be guessing too, although I would guess in agreement with you). I don't mind your opinion and argument, but I don't agree that you can just pass this off as "we're doing him a favor in the long run" and allow our staff to then wash their hands of the decision.

While it may be true that he was unlikely to contribute, it's an immeasurable possibility since he'll never suit up for the Vols. Therefore, the possibility carries no weight in an attempt to justify the staff's decision. If the staff's offer was always contigent on his development than they set themselves up for a public PR blackeye because they are unable to comment on the situation, per NCAA rules. Thus, we only get his word plus mouthpiece media members doing damage control. Consequently, we have recruits that will keep this in mind when considering UT among their finalists right before NSD (i.e., JaQuan Bailey), and a staff that appears hypocritical (to me anyway) when promoting a family atmosphere above a business approach to the roster. If we take on the Bama formula ("We're the best at preparing you for the NFL") than perhaps it's not so disingenuous. JMO
 
#906
#906
There is a place for threads like this one.

It's called Alabama.

Some mod needs to close the lid on this dumpster fire.
 
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#908
#908
PassedOutAwake said:
This thread has become what every argument thread has become to me (any Leb/Bruin thread)

... basically tl;dr
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Ha-ha. I try not to argue too much without all the facts. Might give my opinion once and then let it slide. Doesn't stop some though from being certain they are right, to heck with the facts.
 
#909
#909
junder13 said:
If its true that he "wouldn't have played at UT", then why compromise with a blueshirt offer, as we allegedly did? He would have still gone on scholarship, according to the media tied closest to the staff.

You have no more an idea of his likelihood to contribute in the future as the next couch recruitnik (I would be guessing too, although I would guess in agreement with you). I don't mind your opinion and argument, but I don't agree that you can just pass this off as "we're doing him a favor in the long run" and allow our staff to then wash their hands of the decision.

While it may be true that he was unlikely to contribute, it's an immeasurable possibility since he'll never suit up for the Vols. Therefore, the possibility carries no weight in an attempt to justify the staff's decision. If the staff's offer was always contigent on his development than they set themselves up for a public PR blackeye because they are unable to comment on the situation, per NCAA rules. Thus, we only get his word plus mouthpiece media members doing damage control. Consequently, we have recruits that will keep this in mind when considering UT among their finalists right before NSD (i.e., JaQuan Bailey), and a staff that appears hypocritical (to me anyway) when promoting a family atmosphere above a business approach to the roster. If we take on the Bama formula ("We're the best at preparing you for the NFL") than perhaps it's not so disingenuous. JMO
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The opinion that he wouldn't play at UT is not mine, it's the coaches. They are in a better position than either of us to make that assessment.

Obviously, they felt otherwise when they extended the offer and have changed their minds based presumably on a combination of his development and an evaluation of other options. In other words exactly the same factors that apply once you are on the squad.
 
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#910
#910
This thing still rolling? Somebody cut the fuel line on this clunker and let it die...
 
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#913
#913
junder13 said:
Like I said, it's a microcosm to the world we live in. To you it's acceptable because it's just a four year scholarship offer for some high school senior you've never met. No biggie. I hate it for Hart, but for me, I am more bothered by the near universal acceptance of this occurrence than I am the situation itself. I had no intention of even posting on it (I usually lurk) until I saw the reaction from the orange-tinted sheeple.

And while it's not "immoral" on a scale of life-altering importance, it's the acceptance of injustice on a small scale that eventually leads to injustice on a large scale...and then, given the right environment (recession/depression, times of desperation), unimaginable acts of injustice against humanity. While such desperate times may not appear on the near horizon (I think it is, personally), I would not expect perpetual progress as was once the common notion.

“There may be times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest.”
Elie Wiesel

“Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are.”
Benjamin Franklin

“If you tremble with indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine.”
Che Guevara
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You actually are quoting Che Guevara to bolster your cause?
 
#914
#914
Junder..you have went off the deep end with this injustice crap. Every spoiled entitled little turd in America thinks some "injustice" is done to them daily. You have a good heart, I respect that, but this is ridiculous. Hart knows well and good the staff cannot defend/explain what happened in his case. Playing football for any prestigious program is a conditional, granted privilege, not a right. There is no serious injustice done here. He was offered a chance to prove himself worthy, and did not want to prove it.
 
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#915
#915
Michigan just pulled an offer from a kid who's been committed since 2013. Dan Wolken is on Twitter complaining about Tim Hart. Our fans need to go on twitter and alert this jackass about what Harbaugh did.
 
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#916
#916
doctorchoice said:
Michigan just pulled an offer from a kid who's been committed since 2013. Dan Wolken is on Twitter complaining about Tim Hart. Our fans need to go on twitter and alert this jackass about what Harbaugh did.
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He will ignore it. He hates TN and loves to pile on
 
#918
#918
junder13 said:
These 18-year olds aren't the ones in the position of power when they are not elite recruits (which there are only a couple dozen of such each year). So why is it on them to act accordingly if the scholarship they are offered and accepted (publicly) is taken away? Are you condoning accepting the fate handed down to you by others with dignity and "class" no matter how fair or unfair it is? No everyone is willing to be stepped on like that.
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You are being over the top with sel-righteousness based on a one-sided account. In my previous career I unfortunately had to fire hundreds of people for a variety of reasons. In a high number of cases the fired employee did not accurately communicate the reason for their firing to others. Have you and others bashing CBJ stopped for even a minute to consider the possibility that Hart didn't live up to the conditions set when he was extended an offer? CBJ is not allowed to comment so we don't have his side. Based on many years of experience with the entitled mindset of Hart's generation I think it reasonable to be cautious of believing he is a totally innocent victim here.
 
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#919
#919
I'm not going to even attempt to read through the hundreds of new posts submitted since Hart was cut by UT, but this thread needs to just be left alone.

College football is a pretty serious business. Elite college football programs make hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for their universities every year. It is what it is. Sometimes people are going to get their feelings hurt. It isn't all flowers & rainbows. If you underperform & don't meet expectations, you will be replaced by someone who can. That goes for players, coaches, walk-ons, trainers, or whatever. I played college football at a school smaller than Tennessee, but the current landscape of college football stays the same. If you aren't meeting expectations you will become expendable very fast.

Tennessee fans need to stay consistent & figure out what they want this football program to be about it. The last decade (especially the last 6-8 years) has been one of the worst stretches for football in Tennessee history. During these down years for UT football, I have constantly noticed UT fans negatively speaking about the football programs & head coaches from the schools that were experiencing great success during UT's rough period.

It seemed the overall consensus of UT fans were that the Nick Saban & Urban Meyer type coaches of college football & the Alabama, Florida, Ohio State type programs were all dirty & cheated. The reason these programs were successful was because of their cheating. Allegedly. They paid players, they paid officials, they got illiterate players into school, they unfairly cut ties or processes kids to make room for more elite prospects, etc.

Many of these allegations may have been true. Meanwhile, Tennessee was becoming the laughing stock of college football. The Vols went through the last few lazy, unmotivated years of the Fulmer era before hiring Lane Kiffin & Derek Dooley as head football coaches. Tennessee trotted out the likes of the Sullin brothers, Nick Reveiz, and several other walk-on type players who had no business starting in the SEC. UT lost to Vandy, Kentucky, & Wyoming during this time period. UT squeaked out OT wins against the likes of UAB & Troy State. UT was embarrassed on national TV consistently by Alabama, Florida, Oregon, etc. I think I've said enough, but obviously everybody knows that was a dark time for UT football. But at least we were a moral, non-cheating program & were nice to everybody, right?

I'm not thrilled by the devaluation of commitment in today's society either. Commitment, honor, loyalty, respect, etc. has crumbled & disappeared over the years not only in the college football landscape, but society in general. I dislike Alabama as much as the next UT fan. I don't gain enjoyment from seeing teenage kids get their feelings hurt or adults breaking promises made to recruits. But that has become the business aspect of the game. It is what it is.

Tennessee's football program will have to do everything in its power to become an elite program again. To get back to the top, the Vols will have to seek out & take the best, most skilled coaches & players they can land. Sometimes in order to do that, lesser players will have to be dropped or asked to leave. Promises and relationships will be broken. It is unfortunate but it's the way it is. I think that mindset has a lot to do with the difference of being a perennial 5-7 afterthought in college football & being an elite program.

It is very unfortunate this situation happened with Hart. But it happened & the fans need to move on, IMO. He was still offered the opportunity to blueshirt & be a part of the team (something I & thousands of others would have killed for) and he rejected it. That was his decision. We as fans need to move on so Hart can move on. I wish Hart the best wherever he ends up.

Later Rednecks!
 
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#920
#920
200.gif
 
#921
#921
CrunchingTheVolz said:
Butch has done it before. You can bet he'll do it again. I'm not saying it's right, but he won't hesitate to dump a commitment no matter how long he's been committed.
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I agree. Its the hard part of college FB these days. I hate to see kids get their offers pulled this late in the process, but anyone who knows college FB, knows this has to be done if you want to competitve and rise to the top.
 
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#923
#923
flowd82 said:
I'm not going to even attempt to read through the hundreds of new posts submitted since Hart was cut by UT, but this thread needs to just be left alone.

College football is a pretty serious business. Elite college football programs make hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for their universities every year. It is what it is. Sometimes people are going to get their feelings hurt. It isn't all flowers & rainbows. If you underperform & don't meet expectations, you will be replaced by someone who can. That goes for players, coaches, walk-ons, trainers, or whatever. I played college football at a school smaller than Tennessee, but the current landscape of college football stays the same. If you aren't meeting expectations you will become expendable very fast.

Tennessee fans need to stay consistent & figure out what they want this football program to be about it. The last decade (especially the last 6-8 years) has been one of the worst stretches for football in Tennessee history. During these down years for UT football, I have constantly noticed UT fans negatively speaking about the football programs & head coaches from the schools that were experiencing great success during UT's rough period.

It seemed the overall consensus of UT fans were that the Nick Saban & Urban Meyer type coaches of college football & the Alabama, Florida, Ohio State type programs were all dirty & cheated. The reason these programs were successful was because of their cheating. Allegedly. They paid players, they paid officials, they got illiterate players into school, they unfairly cut ties or processes kids to make room for more elite prospects, etc.

Many of these allegations may have been true. Meanwhile, Tennessee was becoming the laughing stock of college football. The Vols went through the last few lazy, unmotivated years of the Fulmer era before hiring Lane Kiffin & Derek Dooley as head football coaches. Tennessee trotted out the likes of the Sullin brothers, Nick Reveiz, and several other walk-on type players who had no business starting in the SEC. UT lost to Vandy, Kentucky, & Wyoming during this time period. UT squeaked out OT wins against the likes of UAB & Troy State. UT was embarrassed on national TV consistently by Alabama, Florida, Oregon, etc. I think I've said enough, but obviously everybody knows that was a dark time for UT football. But at least we were a moral, non-cheating program & were nice to everybody, right?

I'm not thrilled by the devaluation of commitment in today's society either. Commitment, honor, loyalty, respect, etc. has crumbled & disappeared over the years not only in the college football landscape, but society in general. I dislike Alabama as much as the next UT fan. I don't gain enjoyment from seeing teenage kids get their feelings hurt or adults breaking promises made to recruits. But that has become the business aspect of the game. It is what it is.

Tennessee's football program will have to do everything in its power to become an elite program again. To get back to the top, the Vols will have to seek out & take the best, most skilled coaches & players they can land. Sometimes in order to do that, lesser players will have to be dropped or asked to leave. Promises and relationships will be broken. It is unfortunate but it's the way it is. I think that mindset has a lot to do with the difference of being a perennial 5-7 afterthought in college football & being an elite program.

It is very unfortunate this situation happened with Hart. But it happened & the fans need to move on, IMO. He was still offered the opportunity to blueshirt & be a part of the team (something I & thousands of others would have killed for) and he rejected it. That was his decision. We as fans need to move on so Hart can move on. I wish Hart the best wherever he ends up.

Later Rednecks!
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Great post
 
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