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smokedog#3
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gonygonygo
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good stats, but notice how u only cited RUSH defense, not pass or total. I agree, we stopped the run in 2001, but 2002, 2003, and 2004 left lots to desire. UT has never been great in pass defense. 2001's defense was good, but they weren't carrying the team, which is the point i was trying to make.
I was trying to disprove the notion that UT's defense is what got us to those games. I can be fair and say it was close to even in 2001 with our offense and defense.
Even with the players mentioned, how many of those defensive players actually turned out to be great compared to the offensive?
With the exception of John Henderson, (I'd give you Albert Haynesworth, but he hasn't lived up to his potential and stays either hurt or in trouble) that group of defensive players is far inferior in terms of NFL success compared to the offensive list. Rashard Moore starts for a defensive line in Seattle that has been among the league's worst in stopping the run. Andre Lott isn't good. Franklin (DT, Ravens) has 13 tackles and 0 sacks in 3 years, which speaks for itself. Rashad Baker has made it as a backup. Julian Battle sucks, and is only still playing because of his attributes, not ability. The rest of them either are minor special teamers, or have been cut from their respective team rosters. Burnett remains to give me anything talk about.
You forgot Gibril Wilson who is also very good among the defense, I'll give you that. He happens to play for my favorite team. Oh, and you also forgot Jabari Greer, but he hasn't done anything special.
All of the offensive guys besides Travis Stephens (a good friend of mine) are all solid contributors to their teams, and pretty good teams at that. Whitten is an all pro. Eric Parker is SD's best receiver besides their TE. Stallworth is a solid starter putting up good numbers every year. Mark Jones has been the primary return guy for TB. Troy Flemming starts for the Titans now, if I remember; they are a bad team, so I'll take that one back. Also, dont forget Cedric Wilson, but he's not great either.
I think I've gone off on a tangent as I normally do. I just would like you guys to agree with me that the defense (until this year) has NOT been carrying the offense like people would like to believe. Even if the offense has declined this year.
To say the offense has declined over the past few years is hard for me to agree with because they carried a bad defense, except for 2001. Cutcliff's variety may have been better, but to say the offense's decline has hurt the team has not been true, besides this year.
You can also cite the number of high round defensive draft picks, but that doesn't mean the whole defense as a unit was very talented. :ninja:
gonygonygo
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I'm sure you guys still feel like Sanders has killed the offense. I dont think I can change your opinions. I can only state the facts.
You can compare numbers, and I never said he was better than Cutcliff, but his offense was good enough for us to contend for the SEC Championship the past several years.
You can compare numbers, and I never said he was better than Cutcliff, but his offense was good enough for us to contend for the SEC Championship the past several years.
Liper
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Gony,
I cited total defense and rush defense, but couldn't find it for 2001.
I'm at an absolute loss as to how you can spin it that we didn't have that much talent on defense. Maybe not compared to the Baltimore Ravens, but we had as much or more than any college team, save Miami.
If a college player makes an NFL roster then they are a good player - period. It's too hard to make those teams. If you use this same criteria on other teams, you'll find 115 college teams with no talent.
75% of our DL were NFL starting ability. The other guys were our 2nd string - and they played in the NFL too.
OK, let's just say we had medicore talent. No matter what measurement you use, we had better talent than anyone else in the SEC.
I cited total defense and rush defense, but couldn't find it for 2001.
I'm at an absolute loss as to how you can spin it that we didn't have that much talent on defense. Maybe not compared to the Baltimore Ravens, but we had as much or more than any college team, save Miami.
If a college player makes an NFL roster then they are a good player - period. It's too hard to make those teams. If you use this same criteria on other teams, you'll find 115 college teams with no talent.
75% of our DL were NFL starting ability. The other guys were our 2nd string - and they played in the NFL too.
OK, let's just say we had medicore talent. No matter what measurement you use, we had better talent than anyone else in the SEC.
Liper
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I can only speak for myself...
...Fulmer killed our offense over a period of years by being stubborn and delusional about a) the level of our success and B) the reasons behind the success we had. He allowed a below-average staff to continue with little to no accountability and pretended problems were not there.
RS was put into a position that he was neither qualified for nor supported by competent assistants. That's still CPF's fault.
Liper
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FSU
1999 13-0, AP 1, ACC, NC
2000 11-2, AP 5, ACC, NC game
2001 8-4, AP 15
2002 9-5, AP 23
2003 10-3, AP 11, ACC
2004 9-3, AP 15
3 ACCC
1 NC won
2 NC played for
2 top 10 rankings
4 top 15 rankings
6 top 25 rankings
Winning % .779
They've slipped some, for sure. Still looks a lot better than TN's record. Frankly, it lools superior to TN's record, especially the 3 ACC titles.
hatvol96
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Aren't all three of those ACC titles pre-Miami and VA Tech? I think so. Also, who beat them in the 98 title game? Actually they also played Oklahoma in 2000 for the championsihp and got crushed. They lived off the pathetic competition in the ACC. Miami beat them down in 00, 01, 02, 03, 04. They will avenge the fluke opening night loss by killing them in the ACC title game.
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When you really look at the numbers: FSU has 60 wins in that period while we have 55, but that is a little misleading since they picked up 4 more of those wins in 1999 alone. In the last 3 years, we have identical win totals and if you go back 1 more year, we actually have 2 more wins than FSU does. I'd say these two programs are pretty identical; especially when you consider the level of competition that FSU was playing in the ACC up until very recently.
gonygonygo
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When it comes to talent, remember that UT isn't the only "talented" team in the SEC. We have been for several years in the past, but I think as of now, everyone else has just as much, if not more.
We have more successful players in the NFL than UF, but they beat us all of those times in the 90's under Spurrier. So coaching also played a factor. And it also goes to show that as much as you guys praise Cutcliff, he was inferior to Spurrier offensively.
We did lose to LSU in a game we should have won, but that LSU roster was stacked as well. A good % (similar to UT's) is currently in the NFL, and doing well. They were just as talented as we were. Check ESPN.com and look at their players in the league. Many of them were on that 2001 team.
Cutcliff DIDN'T win 2-3 NC's here. Just like RS didn't win 2-3 SEC Championships. 03 and 04 weren't all that impressive as you said, but they were good enough to carry a lackluster defense for both of those years.
gonygonygo
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gonygonygo
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gonygonygo
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Please give me the margin of victory for each of those games. Tell the full story. I didn't say FSU was better, but they play with Miami every year all the way down to the end. Each game usually had one big play that went against FSU, or they would be the ones winning the last 5 of 6.
As far as I'm concerned, both teams are on the same level, and always have been. How many times has FSU finished in the top 10 in the past 10-15 years?? Probably more than you would think. You can say what you want about the ACC schedule, but they have always played Miami every year.
I think the ACC deserves more credit than it gets. The SEC is an overrated conference. People have a bias because it's all we follow closely, and our favorite team is in it.
The past several times we played ACC teams, did we win? Was it close?
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Since Miami has gotten in along with BC and Va Tech, there's no doubt the ACC is a strong conference, but you've got to admit that it was a little weak prior to that. It was basically FSU and occasionally a team like Virginia or Maryland would be pretty good, then Clemson, NC State, Ga Tech, UNC would all battle it out to see who would win 7 games and get the other bowl bid.
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