Abortion debate (split from bball forum)

#251
#251
gsvol said:
This was how the Greeks depicted the first mounted warriors from the steppes of Russia that they met on the field of battle.

You will go to great lengths to steer threads to your anti-Christian views, will you not?
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Yea, therealUT. You don't post bogus pictures to further your personal agenda. THAT'S gsvol's territory!
 
#252
#252
jerryvol44 said:
Pro choice, what does that even mean? The other side of the coin of pro life is not pro choice it is pro death. So why do people who support baby killing have to dress it up by using false terms. I tell you why, they can't even admit to themselves what they actually support.
I have heard women say It's my body and I can choose to do what I want to with it. This is wrong both ways, first it is not her body it is the babies body she is destroying and second she is not free to choose what to do with he own body suicide is against the law. Abortion can only be supported by false argurments.
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You are ignorant to the fact that many people, including myself, believe that anyone should have the right to choose to abort, but that doesn't mean we condone it. I may prefer that women don't get abortions, but I very strongly believe they should have the right to choose. That, in no way, makes me "pro-death". That is just ignorant.

This girl I know at my HS got raped. I didn't blame her for wanting to abort. She felt terrible about it and she was didn't want to do it, but can you really blame a 15-year-old for not wanting to birth a rapist's child?
 
#253
#253
droski said:
i have no idea if a fetus is a person at 2 weeks before the major organs develop. i can safetly assume it is at 6 months when it's weeks away from surviving on it's own. i'm not saying i have no moral qualms with abortion. i have quite a few. but i'm not going to pretend i know the exact second that it's murder.
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But why does that mean all abortions should be legal?
 
#255
#255
tvolsfan said:
But why does that mean all abortions should be legal?
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Because in an ideal society, everyone looks out for themselves. "My safety and well-being are top priority in my life." The biggest need for abortion, unplanned pregnancies, often jeopardize the health and safety for potential parents who don't have skills or resources to raise a child.
 
#256
#256
therealUT said:
I don't believe in this god of yours; however, I love the precedent your argument is setting.

Pregnant woman: created the fetus inside of her, so she can destroy the fetus inside of her.

I do love your logic.
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No human being ever created anything. The only thing we can do as human beings is manipulate what God has created. To create something would be to take nothing and make something from it as God did in the beginning of the universe. Lets say you take a glass container which contains nothing a complete vaccum and make a baby inside it by the power of your will from nothing. Then you would have created something. When a women whom God created has sex with a man that God created she may have a baby whom God created. :thumbsup:
 
#257
#257
jerryvol44 said:
No human being ever created anything. The only thing we can do as human beings is manipulate what God has created. To create something would be to take nothing and make something from it as God did in the beginning of the universe. Lets say you take a glass container which contains nothing a complete vaccum and make a baby inside it by the power of your will from nothing. Then you would have created something. When a women whom God created has sex with a man that God created she may have a baby whom God created. :thumbsup:
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You have to realize that not everyone is a Christian. Don't be ethnocentric. People who have created things would be offended to this post.
 
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#258
#258
jerryvol44 said:
You should not mistate facts. God did not tell us not to sleep in the same house as our wives when she is having her period. The law as stated in the old testament only applies to the jews of the old testament because they were/are Gods chosen people i.e. chosen to bless all mankind by being the people who would produce Jesus Christ. In fact I don't believe that even the jews were not to sleep in the same house as their wives, if I remember correctly it says not to uncover her nakedness when she is in her period i.e to have sex with her. I just finishe reading lev again a couple of nights ago and I don't remember the house thing being there.
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I had sex with my gf a few days ago when she was on her period, damn.
 
#260
#260
jerryvol44 said:
No human being ever created anything. The only thing we can do as human beings is manipulate what God has created. To create something would be to take nothing and make something from it as God did in the beginning of the universe. Lets say you take a glass container which contains nothing a complete vaccum and make a baby inside it by the power of your will from nothing. Then you would have created something. When a women whom God created has sex with a man that God created she may have a baby whom God created. :thumbsup:
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I feel like he was saying, based on your logic, and seconded here, that god created the fetus, so that he could then destroy the fetus (because god allows us all to die).

Ergo, pointless act.

That is what I read. Maybe we read differently.
 
#261
#261
I used to be what you'd consider "pro-life", but when a friend asked me what would I do with all the babies born that aren't wanted by their mothers, born addicted to crack, or any of a number of horrific birth defects. There's only so much private charities and the like can do. It's certainly true that since Roe v. Wade, a potential Einstein or Jonas Salk has been lost, but it's equally true that the next Manson or Dahmer was prevented as well.

I don't like abortion (what sane person does) and I believe that late-term abortions should be banned entirely, but I don't believe that a woman should be forced, by gunpoint, to have a child especially in the case of rape or incest. Just to make myself clear (lest the religious zombies go crazy) all options should be explored prior to the decision to have an abortion. I think that the "morning after pill" should be as widely available as condoms. I'd also like to have an agreed upon time at which "life begins". I don't believe that it's at conception, like droski said, at six months a fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb.

I'm sure other people wrestle with this issue the same way I do. It's just not a black and white situation and neither the religious zealots nor the militant pro-abortion crowd help the debate with their inflexibility.
 
#262
#262
jerryvol44 said:
It tells us He is God. He created all the first born of Egypt and he destroyed all the first born of Egypt. Not only that he hardened Pharaohs heart so that he would not obey Gods command through Moses to release the Isrealites. In order to demonstrate to the Isr that He is God.
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So while we have no right to take a life, god, countlessly times, has and you accept that?
 
#264
#264
MG1968 said:
I used to be what you'd consider "pro-life", but when a friend asked me what would I do with all the babies born that aren't wanted by their mothers, born addicted to crack, or any of a number of horrific birth defects. There's only so much private charities and the like can do. It's certainly true that since Roe v. Wade, a potential Einstein or Jonas Salk has been lost, but it's equally true that the next Manson or Dahmer was prevented as well.

I don't like abortion (what sane person does) and I believe that late-term abortions should be banned entirely, but I don't believe that a woman should be forced, by gunpoint, to have a child especially in the case of rape or incest. Just to make myself clear (lest the religious zombies go crazy) all options should be explored prior to the decision to have an abortion. I think that the "morning after pill" should be as widely available as condoms. I'd also like to have an agreed upon time at which "life begins". I don't believe that it's at conception, like droski said, at six months a fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb.

I'm sure other people wrestle with this issue the same way I do. It's just not a black and white situation and neither the religious zealots nor the militant pro-abortion crowd help the debate with their inflexibility.
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I've pretty much always been in this boat - was never a staunch pro-lifer but on the other hand the free and unfettered pro-choice view doesn't seem workable either.

Bottomline, the fetus is "life" before birth and allowing abortion then is tantamount to saying one person can kill another for any number of reasons.
 
#267
#267
therealUT said:
Grammatically, this does not make sense. Basically, you have made the following statement:

"I believe this through belief."

It is a nonsensical statement. It means nothing.
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No one can prove that there is a God. No one can prove that there is no God. There are testamonies by the appostles as to the miracles of Jesus and there is so much I have learned from the bible that has strengthed my faith as I have studied. For instance Paul who hated Christians and believed he was called by God to persecute and even kill Christians was suddenly converted by his own testamony by an encounter with the Christ on the road to Demascus. If you know anything about Jews you must realize how impossible it is for a real Jew to be converted to Christianity. Paul was a Jews, Jew. That is an example of something that strengthes my faith.
But really I came to a point in my life where I realized that I am a sinner and I needed forgiveness from God for my sin. I went from an agnostic to a believer. What you need to realize is that I am simply telling you what I believe, It doesn't matter to me what you believe. I can't save you only God can do that. I would not try to change you in any way. God saved me and gave me a new life just as the bible said he would. I changed and as a result I am much happier and satisfied with my life. I am still a sinner as are we all, but I am a forgiven sinner. The faith that I have is the gift of God and not of myself so that I may not boast.
 
#268
#268
MG1968 said:
I used to be what you'd consider "pro-life", but when a friend asked me what would I do with all the babies born that aren't wanted by their mothers, born addicted to crack, or any of a number of horrific birth defects. There's only so much private charities and the like can do. It's certainly true that since Roe v. Wade, a potential Einstein or Jonas Salk has been lost, but it's equally true that the next Manson or Dahmer was prevented as well.

I don't like abortion (what sane person does) and I believe that late-term abortions should be banned entirely, but I don't believe that a woman should be forced, by gunpoint, to have a child especially in the case of rape or incest. Just to make myself clear (lest the religious zombies go crazy) all options should be explored prior to the decision to have an abortion. I think that the "morning after pill" should be as widely available as condoms. I'd also like to have an agreed upon time at which "life begins". I don't believe that it's at conception, like droski said, at six months a fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb.

I'm sure other people wrestle with this issue the same way I do. It's just not a black and white situation and neither the religious zealots nor the militant pro-abortion crowd help the debate with their inflexibility.
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Excellent post.
 
#269
#269
MG1968 said:
I used to be what you'd consider "pro-life", but when a friend asked me what would I do with all the babies born that aren't wanted by their mothers, born addicted to crack, or any of a number of horrific birth defects. There's only so much private charities and the like can do. It's certainly true that since Roe v. Wade, a potential Einstein or Jonas Salk has been lost, but it's equally true that the next Manson or Dahmer was prevented as well.

I don't like abortion (what sane person does) and I believe that late-term abortions should be banned entirely, but I don't believe that a woman should be forced, by gunpoint, to have a child especially in the case of rape or incest. Just to make myself clear (lest the religious zombies go crazy) all options should be explored prior to the decision to have an abortion. I think that the "morning after pill" should be as widely available as condoms. I'd also like to have an agreed upon time at which "life begins". I don't believe that it's at conception, like droski said, at six months a fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb.

I'm sure other people wrestle with this issue the same way I do. It's just not a black and white situation and neither the religious zealots nor the militant pro-abortion crowd help the debate with their inflexibility.
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I think I completely agree with everything here.
 
#270
#270
MG1968 said:
I used to be what you'd consider "pro-life", but when a friend asked me what would I do with all the babies born that aren't wanted by their mothers, born addicted to crack, or any of a number of horrific birth defects. There's only so much private charities and the like can do. It's certainly true that since Roe v. Wade, a potential Einstein or Jonas Salk has been lost, but it's equally true that the next Manson or Dahmer was prevented as well.

I don't like abortion (what sane person does) and I believe that late-term abortions should be banned entirely, but I don't believe that a woman should be forced, by gunpoint, to have a child especially in the case of rape or incest. Just to make myself clear (lest the religious zombies go crazy) all options should be explored prior to the decision to have an abortion. I think that the "morning after pill" should be as widely available as condoms. I'd also like to have an agreed upon time at which "life begins". I don't believe that it's at conception, like droski said, at six months a fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb.

I'm sure other people wrestle with this issue the same way I do. It's just not a black and white situation and neither the religious zealots nor the militant pro-abortion crowd help the debate with their inflexibility.
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Outstanding post
 
#271
#271
jerryvol44 said:
If you know anything about Jews you must realize how impossible it is for a real Jew to be converted to Christianity.
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How many of the disciples were Jews? Who were many of the early churches composed of again?

I know many Jews very well. They're just people. Your statement above is silly and wreaks of some of desperation to explain why most Jews did not think Jesus was the Messiah at the time.
 
#272
#272
Chris4Vols22 said:
You have to realize that not everyone is a Christian. Don't be ethnocentric. People who have created things would be offended to this post.
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Sorry I have a right to my belief just as everyone else has the right to theirs. Your post ignores my clear point just leave the God part out if it offends you. I still maintain that no human being has ever created anything. We can only manipulate the things that exist. I am talking about the physical universe.
 
#274
#274
jerryvol44 said:
Sorry I have a right to my belief just as everyone else has the right to theirs. Your post ignores my clear point just leave the God part out if it offends you. I still maintain that no human being has ever created anything. We can only manipulate the things that exist. I am talking about the physical universe.
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Wait, did someone say they thought humans invented the universe?
 
#275
#275
tvolsfan said:
I think I completely agree with everything here.
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I agree with most. Definitely a solid post.

The whole process is "biological life," and thus I believe it is alive at conception. When something has to be defined philosophically in order for it to be argued, we end up... here.

That doesn't mean I am against abortion, though. Much as I'm not against: war, the death penalty, self-defense, or defense of others.
 
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