Abortion debate (split from bball forum)

#126
#126
Tenacious D said:
I'm not approaching it from any "religious" angle.

To me, it boils down to this:
1. A woman has a right to do with her body as she pleases.
2. A fetus has a right to life.
Insofar as I can see, no one is evil or going to Hades at this point.

Where two equally sound rights conflict, I weigh the following:
1. Which of the two had the least self-determination from which the conflict arose?

2. Which would suffer the greatest harm, should the opposing right be favored, and theirs be infringed?

3. To what extent / degree / severity would the harm continue, and to what extent could it mitigated, if any?

Personally, I think that short of the mother's life being equally and certainly imperiled as the unborn child's - that the right to life always and justly supersedes the right to choose.

Fortunately, as I am not woman, I'll never be faced with this decision - and understand that the drafting of a bulleted list of philosophical preferences is no suitable substitute for all that would actually be required in making that decision and then living with it.

And, admittedly, I don't know what I'd think / value / believe when actually faced with that decision.
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Reasonable post IMO. Not sure I totally agree with it, but very reasonable and rational.
 
#127
#127
utvols88 said:
Its a 12-14 year old girl. It has a pretty high chance of that. But if you make abortion illegal then she can't do that. No one is ok with killing babies. But making it illegal is not a good idea. And I didn't even mention the social reprecusions of black-market/ back alley "businesses" that aren't clean or regulated with zero accountability.
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If there's nothing wrong with it - then there should be no limit to it, whatsoever.

We should demand abortion kiosks at the mall.

Abortive tissues should be used in stem-cell research, making soup for the homeless, tread for tires or whatever.
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#129
#129
JZVOL said:
If I believe in the God of the Bible- How could I possibly fully understand His motives? Humans have yet to cure the common cold and you are asking me to explain why God does something?
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No...once again.

Just asking you to consider how much sense that makes. None. As much as a virgin being pregnant, a dead man resurrecting himself after 3 days, and several million species of animals packing themselves on a boat and then repopulating the world.
 
#130
#130
Shot0fClarity said:
No...once again.

Just asking you to consider how much sense that makes. None. As much as a virgin being pregnant, a dead man resurrecting himself after 3 days, and several million species of animals packing themselves on a boat and then repopulating the world.
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Would all that you believe withstand similiar scrutiny?
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#132
#132
Tenacious D said:
Would all that you believe withstand similiar scrutiny?
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Not sure, but I don't believe anything is concrete. I'm open to changing theories due to further research.

Are you saying any of those 3 situations I just stated are even plausible?
 
#133
#133
timmy said:
You are consistent. That's a rarity.
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The person who kills a 7-11store guy doesn't deserve to die. He should sit in a jail cell 23.5 hours for the rest of his life

Now if someone like Hitler or OBL were to be captured then they would have to be killed because more evil is created while keeping them alive vs the evil created when killing that person
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#134
#134
Nonbelievers are good people because they have a good heart.
Christians are good people because they fear hell.

This assumption that you must be a Christian to have morals and values is completely absurd.
I'm not a Christian but I certainly believe in being faithful to your wife, taking care of your kids, and being thankful for all the blessings in your life.
 
#135
#135
Shot0fClarity said:
No...once again.

Just asking you to consider how much sense that makes. None. As much as a virgin being pregnant, a dead man resurrecting himself after 3 days, and several million species of animals packing themselves on a boat and then repopulating the world.
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You really don't think I've considered that? I'm a Christian, but that doesn't make me an idiot or naive.

Asking you to consider how much sense it makes that some how some way the Earth just happened to be here in perfect conditions for life with no specific purpose or plan?

I would take placing my trust/faith/hope in a God, Jesus that wants me to spend eternity with him after I leave the Earth rather than nothing.
 
#136
#136
It's kinda hard to have death certificate without a birth certificate.
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#137
#137
Shot0fClarity said:
Nonbelievers are good people because they have a good heart.
Christians are good people because they fear hell.

This assumption that you must be a Christian to have morals and values is completely absurd.
I'm not a Christian but I certainly believe in being faithful to your wife, taking care of your kids, and being thankful for all the blessings in your life.
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I am a Christian and literally the only difference in us is that I believe Jesus is God and has forgiven me and paid my cost therefore I can enter the Kingdom of God.

My sin is the reason I need the forgiveness of Christ, I do dumb crap all the time.

Whom or what is blessing you if there is no God?
 
#138
#138
JZVOL said:
You really don't think I've considered that? I'm a Christian, but that doesn't make me an idiot or naive.

Asking you to consider how much sense it makes that some how some way the Earth just happened to be here in perfect conditions for life with no specific purpose or plan?

I would take placing my trust/faith/hope in a God, Jesus that wants me to spend eternity with him after I leave the Earth rather than nothing.
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I'm not meaning to disrespect you in anyway. I'm fine with people believing in whatever they want.

Also, that is why you don't see life on Mercury, Mars, Venus, Jupiter, or any other of the thousands of known masses in space.

The conditions on this planet happened to be just right for biological processes. Perhaps somewhere thousands of light years away something similar exists. I doubt we'll know in our lifetimes.
 
#139
#139
Shot0fClarity said:
I'm not meaning to disrespect you in anyway. I'm fine with people believing in whatever they want.

Also, that is why you don't see life on Mercury, Mars, Venus, Jupiter, or any other of the thousands of known masses in space.

The conditions on this planet happened to be just right for biological processes. Perhaps somewhere thousands of light years away something similar exists. I doubt we'll know in our lifetimes.
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I don't think you are trying to at all and don't take it that way.
 
#140
#140
I believe I do things wrong also, but only according to my personal values. Things I deem okay might not be so in your book, vise-verse.

I see blessings in a nice day, a good fishing trip, time well spent with my family, health, etc. I don't think anyone gives me these, but chance has afforded me these things to appreciate while I have them. They can easily be gone tomorrow, so I see them as blessings(privileges) in the present time.

I do think the bible can be helpful for those who don't have a good concept on the right way to live their lives. Chances are, if you live your life the exact way the bible tells you, your life will be much more enjoyable for yourself and others around you. So, in a sense, your life becomes similar to what 'heaven' is described as. Having not been wasted.
 
#141
#141
Shot0fClarity said:
I'm not meaning to disrespect you in anyway. I'm fine with people believing in whatever they want.

Also, that is why you don't see life on Mercury, Mars, Venus, Jupiter, or any other of the thousands of known masses in space.

The conditions on this planet happened to be just right for biological processes. Perhaps somewhere thousands of light years away something similar exists. I doubt we'll know in our lifetimes.
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Elaborate please! With all due respect!

How did this happen, when and prove it. What "lifetime" happens after this one...why, when, prove it. Since you require this of us.

Ours does require faith, but we do have Jesus, the Bible, etc. What do you have?
 
#142
#142
Shot0fClarity said:
I believe I do things wrong also, but only according to my personal values. Things I deem okay might not be so in your book, vise-verse.

I see blessings in a nice day, a good fishing trip, time well spent with my family, health, etc. I don't think anyone gives me these, but chance has afforded me these things to appreciate while I have them. They can easily be gone tomorrow, so I see them as blessings(privileges) in the present time.

I do think the bible can be helpful for those who don't have a good concept on the right way to live their lives. Chances are, if you live your life the exact way the bible tells you, your life will be much more enjoyable for yourself and others around you. So, in a sense, your life becomes similar to what 'heaven' is described as. Having not been wasted.
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It's just crazy to me how those things can't be or aren't seen as coming from God.

I guess it's just a different lens the the other (on both sides) can't see through.
 
#143
#143
Abortion is pretty much the only real debate among us libertarians:

(1) Some libertarians think the fetus is not a life, they think women should be able to choose

(2) Others think that fetus is a life, and thus abortion is a violation of their rights

In my opinion there is nothing conclusive about whether or not it is a life, so I lean toward team 2, cause if team 1 is wrong then it's an atrocity.

Another thought:

How come the Father doesn't get a say? I mean we always say it's the woman's choice, but if she has the baby the Father is legally obligated to support it. I think it's wrong that he doesn't have a say, though I'm not sure how that can be rectified.
 
#150
#150
nbakerld said:
Abortion is pretty much the only real debate among us libertarians:

(1) Some libertarians think the fetus is not a life, they think women should be able to choose

(2) Others think that fetus is a life, and thus abortion is a violation of their rights

In my opinion there is nothing conclusive about whether or not it is a life, so I lean toward team 2, cause if team 1 is wrong then it's an atrocity.

Another thought:

How come the Father doesn't get a say? I mean we always say it's the woman's choice, but if she has the baby the Father is legally obligated to support it. I think it's wrong that he doesn't have a say, though I'm not sure how that can be rectified.
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I have the same questions.
 
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