Abortion debate (split from bball forum)

#176
#176
JZVOL said:
It's just crazy to me how those things can't be or aren't seen as coming from God.

I guess it's just a different lens the the other (on both sides) can't see through.
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Why do some people believe and others do not. It is really not of us to believe. We do not choose God, though I know that most Christians believe that we do. It is God who chooses us.
"You are saved through faith, not of your self, it is the gift of God so that no man can boast."
Most Christians don't ever consider what this means.
Most people do boast they think that they chose to be saved and in a way they did choose, but it was only after God picked them and gave them the gift of faith. So they have no right to boast. "To him that has more shall be given and he shall have abundance. He that has not shall be taken away even that he has."
 
#177
#177
rjd970 said:
Good question, how do you? Would love to hear how you know what He is thinking in some instances, and not in others.
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Does it not just take common sense to see if I use cocaine there is a good chance I get addicted and do a lot of harm to me and my family?
 
#178
#178
JZVOL said:
I'm a Christian and love NYC... again people using something to manipulate others, it's a terrible thing.
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Like routinely taking young children who have no capability for abstract thoughts to church, thus, for a large majority, manipulating and perverted their perspective of the world?
 
#179
#179
bamasucks76 said:
Elaborate please! With all due respect!

How did this happen, when and prove it. What "lifetime" happens after this one...why, when, prove it. Since you require this of us.

Ours does require faith, but we do have Jesus, the Bible, etc. What do you have?
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(biting tongue)
 
#180
#180
utvolpj said:
and just to be clear I think abortion is a terrible practice that the vast majority of humans should never even consider using. However I don't want to force my belief on anyone so I allow each to use their own free will. If God is watching and views it as a sin then people will be punished accordingly right? Good enough for me
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Why do you force your belief on other forms murder? Still dont believe the baby is alive?
 
#181
#181
tvolsfan said:
Don't worry. I'm not sure there's really any basis for that statement that God created evil for his own purpose.
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You don't know the bible. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
 
#182
#182
therealUT said:
Like routinely taking young children who have no capability for abstract thoughts to church, thus, for a large majority, manipulating and perverted their perspective of the world?
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I guess that's why I went to Sunday School and colored pictures of Noah's Ark and the animals and ate snacks.
 
#184
#184
JZVOL said:
Does it not just take common sense to see if I use cocaine there is a good chance I get addicted and do a lot of harm to me and my family?
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OK. But the question is how do you know what God is and isn't against? You are admitting you see the stupidity of doing drugs by your own reasoning? How do you know God thinks it is wrong, and how do you know God thinks abortion is wrong, given you stated the following:

If I believe in the God of the Bible- How could I possibly fully understand His motives? Humans have yet to cure the common cold and you are asking me to explain why God does something?
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#186
#186
A few things. While certainly not conservative on all social issues, I do consider myself a social conservative. While I may get some of those views from religion, this is not one of them. I certainly understand abortions in cases where there may be birth defects, the mother would die in childbirth, the baby would die, rape, etc. That being said, I think late term abortions are repulsive.
 
#187
#187
therealUT said:
Like routinely taking young children who have no capability for abstract thoughts to church, thus, for a large majority, manipulating and perverted their perspective of the world?
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Just to be safe, better not tell them anything about your political views.
 
#188
#188
JZVOL said:
You really don't think I've considered that? I'm a Christian, but that doesn't make me an idiot or naive.

Asking you to consider how much sense it makes that some how some way the Earth just happened to be here in perfect conditions for life with no specific purpose or plan?
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Given the total timeline of of this planet, it has been extremely hostile to life. 99% of all species that ever lived are now extinct, life is only supported some of the time on some of its surface, and the design is destined for failure in the distant future when the sun burns out. Even the human form itself is riddled with worthless parts and ill-designed structures.

The only way one can conclude this is all part of a divine creators plan is if they want to explain for his failures, clumsiness, and incompetence.
 
#189
#189
rjd970 said:
OK. But the question is how do you know what God is and isn't against? You are admitting you see the stupidity of doing drugs by your own reasoning? How do you know God thinks it is wrong, and how do you know God thinks abortion is wrong, given you stated the following:
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You know in a broad sense say abortion, if I was faced with a situation like pj said I would pray and seek God's will. As a believer, I believe the Holy Spirit convicts me when I am doing wrong so if I felt convicted I wouldn't go through with it.

In that sense it would be a personal situation with my family and God.

I've never been in a rally at a clinic or anything but if I had a chance to vote I would vote against abortion but for extreme instances.

I guess bottom line for me I have a real issue with people sleeping around and just having abortions.

I'm sure that doesn't answer anything but oh well.
 
#191
#191
utvolpj said:
violating the rights of another is a crime

and please quote where I ever said a fetus wasn't alive. Thanks
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Hence the debate...... if the baby is alive, which it is, then its wrong and a crime.

You didnt say one way or the other. That was the point in the question mark.
 
#192
#192
I find myself to be one of the few in this situation, but is there anyone else who is pro-life and in favor of stem cell research?
 
#193
#193
rjd970 said:
Given the total timeline of of this planet, it has been extremely hostile to life. 99% of all species that ever lived are now extinct, life is only supported some of the time on some of its surface, and the design is destined for failure in the distant future when the sun burns out. Even the human form itself is riddled with worthless parts and ill-designed structures.

The only way one can conclude this is all part of a divine creators plan is if they want to explain for his failures, clumsiness, and incompetence.
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Harry Carey??? "If the moon was made or ribs, would ya eat it?"

Clearly that's the only way, your way.
 
#194
#194
bamasucks76 said:
Hence the debate...... if the baby is alive, which it is, then its wrong and a crime.

You didnt say one way or the other. That was the point in the question mark.
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not really the debate at all. And your question implied I had said there was no life which is ridiculously false.
 
#195
#195
JZVOL said:
You know in a broad sense say abortion, if I was faced with a situation like pj said I would pray and seek God's will. As a believer, I believe the Holy Spirit convicts me when I am doing wrong so if I felt convicted I wouldn't go through with it.

In that sense it would be a personal situation with my family and God.

I've never been in a rally at a clinic or anything but if I had a chance to vote I would vote against abortion but for extreme instances.

I guess bottom line for me I have a real issue with people sleeping around and just having abortions.

I'm sure that doesn't answer anything but oh well.
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So, if the Holy Spirit told you to have an abortion, yet you had already successfully rallied to outlaw abortions, you would then have to break the law. Correct?

Why not just be prudent and not force the law one way or the other if the Holy Spirit has yet to counsel you, on this specific issue? Or, the Holy Spirit has and you think it (an immutable God) will later change its mind?
 
#197
#197
therealUT said:
So, if the Holy Spirit told you to have an abortion, yet you had already successfully rallied to outlaw abortions, you would then have to break the law. Correct?
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I'm sorry, but what exactly are you supposed to be arguing here? Change the word abortion to murder and you would be proposing the same question.
 
#198
#198
JZVOL said:
Harry Carey??? "If the moon was made or ribs, would ya eat it?"

Clearly that's the only way, your way.
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Maybe, maybe not. But clearly, there are better ways. You assume his way is best because he is perfect by definition, so everything flowing down from that must be perfect.

Here in the rational world, we look at the evidence first and then draw conclusions about what is behind it all.

Clearly, if this is the work of a supreme creator, I am unimpressed. This wouldn't even pass the mustard for a bad office temp.
 
#199
#199
tvolsfan said:
I'm sorry, but what exactly are you supposed to be arguing here? Change the word abortion to murder and you would be proposing the same question.
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Insert any word you want for "abortion".

His view that he will seek divine counsel when he is faced with a decision, yet in the meantime act to legally limit the freedoms of others to potentially seek divine counsel is self-righteous, arrogant, and hypocritical.
 
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