Active Shooter at High School in Parkland, FL

#376
#376
InVOLuntary said:
Sure, that's the best scenario but unrealistic. I'm sure most would rather not have a fire but few would discourage the use of a fire extinguisher or the abolishment of a fire department.
Click to expand...

fire extinguishers don't kill people
 
#377
#377
InVOLuntary said:
When I was 17 I had a shotgun in my trunk more often than not, even at school. So yeah, I would definitely would prefer to have something to fight back with.

Also, I bet some if those kids in FL wish their teachers had something to fight back with.
Click to expand...

That would be a great question to ask.
 
#378
#378
crusse10 said:
I understand that your discussion is about that. My intention is to say that only trying to fix the last line of defense is only an attempt to slightly quell the mayhem instead of searching for a more permanent and effective solution.

And as I said previously, a mass shooter doesn't go into a mass shooting expecting to survive. The potential of firepower coming back isn't a deterrent when you plan on shooting yourself once police arrive.
Click to expand...

I've never said I thought arming teachers was the end all solution. I think it's the last line of defense if everything else fails. It's needs to be several layers of preventative measures. The first being making sure mentally unstable people do not have access to firearms. The second, we have security measures to keep people with intent to do harm from reaching the school, armed security, and then as a last line of defense, have teachers that are willing, and go through initial and continued training to carry.
 
#380
#380
crusse10 said:
I understand that your discussion is about that. My intention is to say that only trying to fix the last line of defense is only an attempt to slightly quell the mayhem instead of searching for a more permanent and effective solution.

And as I said previously, a mass shooter doesn't go into a mass shooting expecting to survive. The potential of firepower coming back isn't a deterrent when you plan on shooting yourself once police arrive.
Click to expand...

How do we know that the laws that are already in place haven't already stopped numerous mass shootings? The ones that have occurred were only carried out by those so determined that they would acquire a weapon any way possible.

Better enforcement of current laws probably would have kept this guy from legally obtaining a gun. But I doubt he would have given up. He would have gotten one somehow, might even been willing to die trying. Then what?

Im in agreement for Having teachers trained and armed. Its a no brainer. In my opinion, newt. :)
 
#381
#381
Behr said:
How do we know that the laws that are already in place haven't already stopped numerous mass shootings? The ones that have occurred were only carried out by those so determined that they would acquire a weapon any way possible.
Click to expand...

Isn't it true that many mass shootings in the US over the last few years have been carried out by law-abiding citizens who got their guns completely lawfully?

I just believe some teenagers who might commit a heinous crime like this might just stall and stall and stall and stall instead of actually finding a blackmarket way to get a gun if they couldn't just walk into a gun shop and pass a background check with their (at the time) spotless record.

I think y'all give angsty teens way too much credit.
 
#382
#382
crusse10 said:
Isn't it true that many mass shootings in the US over the last few years have been carried out by law-abiding citizens who got their guns completely lawfully?
Click to expand...

I guess you only read what you quoted? What additional law would you suggest that would have prevented him from lawfully purchasing and possessing a firearm?

I just believe some teenagers who might commit a heinous crime like this might just stall and stall and stall and stall instead of actually finding a blackmarket way to get a gun if they couldn't just walk into a gun shop and pass a background check with their (at the time) spotless record.
Click to expand...

Some might. Some may have. What about the others?

I think y'all give angsty teens way too much credit.
Click to expand...

Like the one that just killed 17 people?
 
#383
#383
crusse10 said:
Isn't it true that many mass shootings in the US over the last few years have been carried out by law-abiding citizens who got their guns completely lawfully?

I just believe some teenagers who might commit a heinous crime like this might just stall and stall and stall and stall instead of actually finding a blackmarket way to get a gun if they couldn't just walk into a gun shop and pass a background check with their (at the time) spotless record.

I think y'all give angsty teens way too much credit.
Click to expand...

So if they are law abiding citizens, what new law do you propose to make it harder to obtain a gun?
 
#385
#385
Behr said:
How do we know that the laws that are already in place haven't already stopped numerous mass shootings? The ones that have occurred were only carried out by those so determined that they would acquire a weapon any way possible.

Better enforcement of current laws probably would have kept this guy from legally obtaining a gun. But I doubt he would have given up. He would have gotten one somehow, might even been willing to die trying. Then what?

Im in agreement for Having teachers trained and armed. Its a no brainer. In my opinion, newt. :)
Click to expand...

and I respect that opinion, just disagree with it.
 
#386
#386
bignewt said:
You are likening a fire extinguisher to a gun in a teacher's hand. I am pointing out the major flaw in that comparison.
Click to expand...


I fire extinguisher can kill someone. Probably has killed someone. Someone could hit another in the head with one. You're so blinded by the dangers of having a teacher with a gun you can't see that it could neutralize a threat. You seemed convinced that the risk of collateral damage far outweighs the benefits. I'm not convinced of that. All I know is, if I'm holed up in a classroom with a bunch of students with an active shooter on campus, I'd much rather be cuddled up in the corner with a gun rather than huddled up in the corner with a stapler to throw at him. I'll bet you students in that position would say the same.
 
#387
#387
Behr said:
I guess you only read what you quoted? What additional law would you suggest that would have prevented him from lawfully purchasing and possessing a firearm?
Click to expand...

First of all, this is one of the most upsetting things. Many people love to say how they are law-abiding citizens and how they can be trusted with guns. Many of the mass murderers are law abiding until they shoot up a place. Having guns just means if someone snaps, they're already armed. As for

Behr said:
Some might. Some may have. What about the others?
Click to expand...

If some have had simple gun laws stop them from committing mass murders, then there's a potential precedent for stricter gun laws lowering mass murders.

Behr said:
Like the one that just killed 17 people?
Click to expand...

He bought his gun legally. I'm saying y'all are giving too much credit to angsty teens who can't just walk into a gun shop or show and purchase a gun. They generally aren't buying guns illegally. The Columbine shooters had the guns bought legally by someone else. The Sandy Hook shooter's mom had an arsenal that he used. Outside of schools the Pulse shooter bought his guns legally and the Vegas shooter had dozens of guns, all bought legally. It still goes back to the "law abiding" comment. Perhaps law abiding citizens, and citizens in general, don't need this level of firepower. It's not like it was what was ever intended in the first place for 2A.
 
#388
#388
InVOLuntary said:
I fire extinguisher can kill someone. Probably has killed someone. Someone could hit another in the head with one. You're so blinded by the dangers of having a teacher with a gun you can't see that it could neutralize a threat. You seemed convinced that the risk of collateral damage far outweighs the benefits. I'm not convinced of that. All I know is, if I'm holed up in a classroom with a bunch of students with an active shooter on campus, I'd much rather be cuddled up in the corner with a gun rather than huddled up in the corner with a stapler to throw at him. I'll bet you students in that position would say the same.
Click to expand...

What if the students know what teacher is armed and therefore know what teacher to ambush to steal the gun to use? What if a teacher snaps and uses the gun? Putting guns in schools just sounds like an idea initially pushed by people who want to sell guns.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#389
#389
InVOLuntary said:
I fire extinguisher can kill someone. Probably has killed someone. Someone could hit another in the head with one. You're so blinded by the dangers of having a teacher with a gun you can't see that it could neutralize a threat. You seemed convinced that the risk of collateral damage far outweighs the benefits. I'm not convinced of that. All I know is, if I'm holed up in a classroom with a bunch of students with an active shooter on campus, I'd much rather be cuddled up in the corner with a gun rather than huddled up in the corner with a stapler to throw at him. I'll bet you students in that position would say the same.
Click to expand...

The fault in your reasoning is that you are superimposing your feelings and what you think you would do onto other people without the formal training of a police officer or soldier who are trained to handle those situations. You think a few classes would get someone ready to actively engage an armed psycho and I disagree.

I am sure there would be teachers out there who could fire and hit a gunman without injuring a student, another teacher or getting themselves killed.

I am also sure there are many, many more who could not.

I'm playing the law of averages and how normal people react to life and death situations. A lot of people can sit back and say "oh yeah I'd take that S.O.B. out in a heartbeat." Reality is a different beast altogether.

There probably isn't a right answer to this but I say hire trained professionals, you say put a glock on the algebra teacher. Both could work but one has a much better chance.
 
#390
#390
crusse10 said:
First of all, this is one of the most upsetting things. Many people love to say how they are law-abiding citizens and how they can be trusted with guns. Many of the mass murderers are law abiding until they shoot up a place. Having guns just means if someone snaps, they're already armed. As for



If some have had simple gun laws stop them from committing mass murders, then there's a potential precedent for stricter gun laws lowering mass murders.



He bought his gun legally. I'm saying y'all are giving too much credit to angsty teens who can't just walk into a gun shop or show and purchase a gun. They generally aren't buying guns illegally. The Columbine shooters had the guns bought legally by someone else. The Sandy Hook shooter's mom had an arsenal that he used. Outside of schools the Pulse shooter bought his guns legally and the Vegas shooter had dozens of guns, all bought legally. It still goes back to the "law abiding" comment. Perhaps law abiding citizens, and citizens in general, don't need this level of firepower. It's not like it was what was ever intended in the first place for 2A.
Click to expand...

Okay, they were law abiding citizens until they weren't. What new law would you suggest that would have prevented them from legally purchasing a firearm? A "must have note from mom" ain't gonna cut it.

And I don't think you're taking today's teenagers seriously enough. They are going into schools killing people in the double digit numbers, not caring if they make it out alive. And you think they'll just except "No, you can't buy this gun", and decide to just go try to get laid instead?

Just don't see it.

I wish I had the answers on how to stop it, but just like you and everyone else, I just have an opinion.
 
#391
#391
#392
#392
crusse10 said:
What if the students know what teacher is armed and therefore know what teacher to ambush to steal the gun to use? What if a teacher snaps and uses the gun? Putting guns in schools just sounds like an idea initially pushed by people who want to sell guns.
Click to expand...

What if a assailant comes into the school and enters a classroom and raises a weapon and an armed teachers pulls a weapon and puts down the assailant? I mean we can do what ifs all day. The difference in what you and Newt believe as to what I believe is simply conjecture. You feel the the risk outweighs the potential benefits. I don't share that belief.
 
#393
#393
bignewt said:
The fault in your reasoning is that you are superimposing your feelings and what you think you would do onto other people without the formal training of a police officer or soldier who are trained to handle those situations. You think a few classes would get someone ready to actively engage an armed psycho and I disagree.

And you are doing the same. I think as a last resort a teacher with some training could use a gun effectively to take down a gunman. You disagree and that's fine.
I respect that.

I am sure there would be teachers out there who could fire and hit a gunman without injuring a student, another teacher or getting themselves killed.
I agree. I don't know the numbers but there are some out there. The trick is to identify them.

I am also sure there are many, many more who could not. And I don't want them carrying any more than you do

I'm playing the law of averages and how normal people react to life and death situations. A lot of people can sit back and say "oh yeah I'd take that S.O.B. out in a heartbeat." Reality is a different beast altogether.
The problem is you have no idea. There is no data to formulate a law of averages. SO it comes down to your gut. Your gut says it's a bad idea, mine says it could work. Nothing wrong with our guts telling us two different things

There probably isn't a right answer to this but I say hire trained professionals, you say put a glock on the algebra teacher. Both could work but one has a much better chance.

No, you're mischaracterizing what I've said.
My position has always been hire as much trained security as possible and then have a limited number of willing teachers that go through initial and continual training that will be a line of last resort.
Click to expand...

.
 
#396
#396
crusse10 said:
First of all, this is one of the most upsetting things. Many people love to say how they are law-abiding citizens and how they can be trusted with guns. Many of the mass murderers are law abiding until they shoot up a place. Having guns just means if someone snaps, they're already armed. As for



If some have had simple gun laws stop them from committing mass murders, then there's a potential precedent for stricter gun laws lowering mass murders.



He bought his gun legally. I'm saying y'all are giving too much credit to angsty teens who can't just walk into a gun shop or show and purchase a gun. They generally aren't buying guns illegally. The Columbine shooters had the guns bought legally by someone else. The Sandy Hook shooter's mom had an arsenal that he used. Outside of schools the Pulse shooter bought his guns legally and the Vegas shooter had dozens of guns, all bought legally. It still goes back to the "law abiding" comment. Perhaps law abiding citizens, and citizens in general, don't need this level of firepower. It's not like it was what was ever intended in the first place for 2A.
Click to expand...

Or they would just start building bombs to kill people out of ordinary household items..
 
#399
#399
crusse10 said:
I don't agree that that's the logical next step. I think it's much more likely that they start listening to more emo music and self-harming.
Click to expand...

That is ridiculous..a sociopath or psychopath that has made up his or her mind to experience the thrill of killing is going to make it happen.
 
#400
#400
Ulysees E. McGill said:
That is ridiculous..a sociopath or psychopath that has made up his or her mind to experience the thrill of killing is going to make it happen.
Click to expand...

I disagree. That was the whole point of Minority Report. People have the ability to think about something and change their minds. Sometimes it just takes a slight inconvenience along the way to dissuade them from making the wrong decision.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top