'19 AL QB Taulia Tagovailoa

That's what I figured but wasn't sure. It sux because it's like buying Surf N Turf but not being able to eat it for a year. Schools should get the option to have that scholarship available for a certain time. Like say till August 1st. Then they could add a late signee or use a grad transfer in that spot. Especially if it was the kids fault he couldn't get in. There should be something in place for that situation if the school wants to pursue it.
they have it until signing day or they give it to someone. NCAA is trying to make sure schools and students take the grades seriously and that misses hurt. its more truthful/honest with both the player and the school knowing where they are. If you are wanting to change the way things work you can't keep offering loopholes back to the original.
 
I'm pretty sure that non-qualifiers who signed a LOI are also initial counters for the year they first signed. Although, I believe they can come back to the same school after JUCO without being an initial counter again.
Yeah. Once a signing spot has been used by a non-qualifier it's effectively like the corresponding initial counter spot is tied in with that player. If he enrolls at that school after Juco he then counts toward the 85 limit, but doesn't have to be re-counted again towards the current annual 25 initial counter limit. There's really no way to use his seemingly unused initial counter spot for anyone else because the signing spot you need to go with it was used by the nonqualifier.
 
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I'm pretty sure that non-qualifiers who signed a LOI are also initial counters for the year they first signed. Although, I believe they can come back to the same school after JUCO without being an initial counter again.
I don't know if I agree with that. A counter is defined as someone who "is receiving countable financial aid" not someone who just signed an agreement. I think a counter actually has to be enrolled not one who just signed paperwork (NLI, financial aid offer, etc.).
 
My apologies. I’ll move along. FWIW I don’t buy for a minute that Hurts and Tua are good friends and Taulia and Tyson are best buddies . Especially after Hurts’ comments. Maybe they are for the cameras.
Right? So Hurts did that interview but it was the media that spun his words into being disgruntled. No, no. I totally believe that all the bama qbs are extremely gruntled.

Looks+like+he+wasnt+so+dumb+after+all+_fed055b9cdf49fc9f5249218da8e2b03.jpg
 
Yeah. Once the signing spot is used by a non-qualifier it's effectively like the corresponding initial counter spot is tied in with that player. If he enrolls at that school after Juco he doesn't have to be counted again (other than against the 85 limit). There's no way to use his seemingly unused initial counter spot for anyone else because the signing spot you need to go with it was used by the nonqualifier.

That's what I thought. By the way, thanks for Nadab Joseph. Bad move by Kirby to "steal" that one away.
 
That's what I thought. By the way, thanks for Nadab Joseph. Bad move by Kirby to "steal" that one away.
Yeah. Bama didn't give Joseph an NLI because of concerns about him qualifying. They screwed up by giving one to Jordan Davis though. He never managed to get a good enough ACT score to qualify. It would've been smarter to not let him sign an NLI and just save a spot for him in case he qualified. Live and learn.
 
I don't know if I agree with that. A counter is defined as someone who "is receiving countable financial aid" not someone who just signed an agreement. I think a counter actually has to be enrolled not one who just signed paperwork (NLI, financial aid offer, etc.).

I could be wrong about that. I've seen it said several places that non-qualifiers still count as one of the 25 IC's for that year, but the bylaws are hard for me to understand on that topic. I hope you're correct, since Georgia had two non-qualifiers this year.
 
I did a ton of research and put together some documentation on NCAA signing and counter limits. I've posted it on VN before. I'm going to share it again. It's a good thing to copy save somewhere so it can referenced later -- perhaps in a stickied thread.
 
I think he meant going by their recruiting rankings.

Cornwell was a 5* QB who was heavily recruited by Butch and the staff.
And he attended a Bama competition camp to “win” an offer...I’m familiar. My point was that they weren’t actually elite...so they didn’t play.
 
Signing and Counter Limits / NCAA Bylaws

NCAA Bylaws sections concerning FBS signing and counter limits are posted below. The basic 25/85 (initial/total) scholarship limits are fairly common knowledge, but to help clear up some common misconceptions about them, here are six important things to understand:

1) Transfers (all types) do count toward annual signee and initial counter limits. There's nothing in the Bylaws stating that transfers are exempt. Per section 13.9.2.3, both prospective student-athletes and student-athletes (all-inclusive) do count toward the signee limits. 15.02.3 defines "counter" as an individual (all-inclusive) who is on a countable scholarship. 15.02.3.1 defines “initial counter” as a counter (all-inclusive) who is receiving an initial countable scholarship.

2) Non-qualifiers who signed an NLI still count against their original signee spot and then count against the corresponding initial counter spot at that school if/when they enroll there after JUCO.

3) Grayshirts (15.5.6.3.2) — Deferred enrollees (after fall term) may count toward signee and initial counter limits for the next academic year.

4) Blueshirts (15.5.6.3.4) — The signings limit (effective for the 2018 cycle) ends the ability for non-recruited (no OV, no off-campus meeting, no NLI; 15.02.8) players to receive fall scholarships (within the 85 limit) and count toward the next year's initial counters limit because they'll count toward the current academic year signing limit.

5) Early enrollees (15.5.6.3.5) who are midyear replacements for December or prior academic year graduates may be counted against unused prior cycle signee and initial counter spots. FBS schools may only use the midyear replacement option if they had 85 counters in the fall term.

6) Non-athletic aid (15.5.6.3.7) — A recruited player (OV, off-campus meeting or NLI; 15.02.8) on non-athletic scholarship only counts toward signee and initial/total limits if/when he plays in a game. Exception (15.5.1.2.1) — A recruited player on academic scholarship, after one year with a 3.0/4.0 GPA, may then play and remain a non-counter. Apparently, a non-recruited player on non-athletic aid may play as a non-counter.

Helpful articles: Asking for NLI Release - FAQs;
A deep dive inside the NCAA's tweaked 25-man signing limit...


NCAA Bylaws: (PDF - free download)

13.9.2.3 Limitation on the Number of National Letter of Intent/Offer of Financial Aid Signings. [FBS] For the football bowl subdivision, there shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of prospective student-athletes who may sign a National Letter of Intent or an institutional offer of financial aid and student-athletes who may sign a financial aid agreement for the first time. (Revised: 4/26/17 effective 8/1/17 for signings that occur on or after 8/1/17)

13.9.2.3.1 Application. [FBS] A prospective student-athlete who signs a National Letter of Intent (NLI) or an institutional offer of financial aid or student-athlete who signs a financial aid agreement that specifies financial aid will be initially provided in the fall term of an academic year shall count toward the annual limit on signings for that academic year. A prospective student-athlete who signs a National Letter of Intent (NLI) or an institutional offer of financial aid or student-athlete who signs a financial aid agreement that specifies financial aid will be initially provided during the second or third term of the academic year may count toward the limit for that academic year or the next academic year. (Revised: 4/26/17 effective 8/1/17 for signings that occur on or after 8/1/17)

15.02.3 Counter. A “counter” is an individual who is receiving institutional financial aid that is countable against the aid limitations in a sport.

15.02.3.1 Initial Counter. An “initial counter” is a counter who is receiving countable financial aid in a sport for the first time. (See Bylaw 15.5.6.3 in football for instances in which the institution is permitted to defer the counting of such financial aid until the following academic year.)

15.02.8 Recruited Student-Athlete. For purpose of Bylaw 15, a recruited student-athlete is a student-athlete who, as a prospective student-athlete: (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
(a) Was provided an official visit to the institution’s campus;
(b) Had an arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with a member of the institution’s coaching staff (including any such encounter with the prospective student-athlete’s parents, relatives or legal guardians); or
(c) Was issued a National Letter of Intent or a written offer of athletically related financial aid by the institution for a regular academic term.

The NCAA Bylaws concerning how players are counted against the 25 initial counters and 85 total counters limits are in the next post.
 
NCAA Bylaws:

15.5.6 Football Limitations.

15.5.6.1 Bowl Subdivision Football. [FBS] There shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of initial counters (per Bylaw 15.02.3.1) and an annual limit of 85 on the total number of counters (including initial counters) in football at each institution. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/92, 12/15/06)

15.5.6.3 Initial Counters—Football (Also see Bylaw 15.02.3.1).

15.5.6.3.1 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering in Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters in the fall term and receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) during the first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that year in football. Therefore, such aid shall not be awarded if the institution has reached its limit on the number of initial counters prior to the award of institutional financial aid to the student-athlete.(Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.2 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering After Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters after the first term of the academic year and immediately receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) shall be an initial counter for either the current academic year (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or the next academic year. The student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.3 Recruited Student-Athlete, Aid Received After First Year. [FBS/FCS] A recruited student-athlete (per Bylaw 15.02.8) (including a student-athlete who was not a qualifier) who first receives athletically related financial aid after the student-athlete’s first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that academic year in which the aid is first received, if such aid is received during the fall term. However, such a student athlete who first receives athletically related financial aid in the second or third term of an academic year may be considered an initial counter during the academic year in which aid was first received or the next academic year. In either case, the student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/3/06, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.4 Nonrecruited Student-Athlete Receiving Institutional Financial Aid. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete not recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the institution who receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) after beginning football practice becomes a counter but need not be counted as an initial counter until the next academic year if the institution has reached its initial limit for the year in question. However, the student-athlete shall be considered in the total counter limit for the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.5 Midyear Replacement. [FBS/FCS] A counter who graduates at midyear or who graduates during the previous academic year (including summer) may be replaced by an initial counter, who shall be counted against the initial limit either for the year in which the aid is awarded (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or for the following academic year, or by a student-athlete who was an initial counter in a previous academic year and is returning to the institution after time spent on active duty in the armed services or on an official religious mission. In bowl subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year to the maximum number of overall counters (85 total counters). In championship subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year that equals the maximum number of overall equivalencies or overall counters. (Revised: 4/20/99 effective 8/1/99, 6/8/99, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01, 8/2/05, 12/15/06, 1/14/08 effective 8/1/08, 4/2/10, 1/15/11)

15.5.6.3.6 Aid First Awarded After Second Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete who has been in residence at the certifying institution for at least two academic years may receive athletically related financial aid for the first time without such aid counting as an initial award, provided the aid falls within the overall grant limitation. (Adopted: 1/11/89, Revised: 1/10/90 effective 8/1/90)

15.5.6.3.7 Recruited Student-Athlete, Varsity Competition. [FBS/FCS] In accordance with Bylaw 15.5.1.2, a recruited student-athlete (per Bylaw 15.02.8) receiving institutional financial aid certified as having been granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability becomes an initial counter in the first academic year in which the student-athlete competes on the varsity level. (See Bylaw 15.5.1.2.1.) (Revised: 10/27/05 effective 8/1/06, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.8 Returning Two-Year Transfer. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete who previously was an initial counter and who transferred to a two-year college shall not be an initial counter upon return to the original institution.

15.5.6.3.9 Delayed Initial Counter Who Does Not Return to School. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete who receives countable financial aid but whose status as an initial counter under this bylaw is delayed until the following academic year shall be counted against the initial limit the following academic year, regardless of whether the student-athlete reports for participation or attends the institution in that academic year.

15.5.6.4 Exceptions.

15.5.6.4.1 Voluntary Withdrawal. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws from the football team by providing the financial aid to another student who already has enrolled in the institution and is a member of the football squad. For this replacement to occur, the counter must withdraw prior to the first day of classes or before the first game of the season, whichever is earlier, and provide the institution with a signed statement releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. The institution may immediately (beginning with the fall term) award the financial aid to a student-athlete who has been a member of the team for at least one academic year and has not previously received athletically related financial aid. A student-athlete who has not been a member of the team for at least one academic year may not receive the financial aid during the fall term, but may receive it in a following term (e.g., spring semester, winter quarter). (Revised: 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05)
 
they have it until signing day or they give it to someone. NCAA is trying to make sure schools and students take the grades seriously and that misses hurt. its more truthful/honest with both the player and the school knowing where they are. If you are wanting to change the way things work you can't keep offering loopholes back to the original.

I understand that but a lot times those non qualifying issues come up after signing day. Just like this Peterson stuff and Litaker. I don't know the rule on this but what if a kid signed and then gets arrested or other issues that keeps him from enrolling. Does that still count towards the 25 or is there a different rule in place for that? Hell as long as you have room in the 85 number, everyone should be able to use the full 25 if a situation like I mentioned happened. It's not an unfair advantage for anyone. Really truth and honesty isn't a part of recruiting anymore. It's so cutthroat from both sides.
 
NCAA Bylaws:

15.5.6 Football Limitations.

15.5.6.1 Bowl Subdivision Football. [FBS] There shall be an annual limit of 25 on the number of initial counters (per Bylaw 15.02.3.1) and an annual limit of 85 on the total number of counters (including initial counters) in football at each institution. (Revised: 1/10/91 effective 8/1/92, 12/15/06)

15.5.6.3 Initial Counters—Football (Also see Bylaw 15.02.3.1).

15.5.6.3.1 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering in Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters in the fall term and receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) during the first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that year in football. Therefore, such aid shall not be awarded if the institution has reached its limit on the number of initial counters prior to the award of institutional financial aid to the student-athlete.(Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.2 Recruited Student-Athlete Entering After Fall Term, Aided in First Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution who enters after the first term of the academic year and immediately receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) shall be an initial counter for either the current academic year (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or the next academic year. The student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.3 Recruited Student-Athlete, Aid Received After First Year. [FBS/FCS] A recruited student-athlete (per Bylaw 15.02.8) (including a student-athlete who was not a qualifier) who first receives athletically related financial aid after the student-athlete’s first academic year in residence shall be an initial counter for that academic year in which the aid is first received, if such aid is received during the fall term. However, such a student athlete who first receives athletically related financial aid in the second or third term of an academic year may be considered an initial counter during the academic year in which aid was first received or the next academic year. In either case, the student-athlete shall be included in the institution’s total counter limit during the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/3/06, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.4 Nonrecruited Student-Athlete Receiving Institutional Financial Aid. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete not recruited (per Bylaw 15.02.8) by the institution who receives institutional financial aid (based in any degree on athletics ability) after beginning football practice becomes a counter but need not be counted as an initial counter until the next academic year if the institution has reached its initial limit for the year in question. However, the student-athlete shall be considered in the total counter limit for the academic year in which the aid was first received. (Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.5 Midyear Replacement. [FBS/FCS] A counter who graduates at midyear or who graduates during the previous academic year (including summer) may be replaced by an initial counter, who shall be counted against the initial limit either for the year in which the aid is awarded (if the institution’s annual limit has not been reached) or for the following academic year, or by a student-athlete who was an initial counter in a previous academic year and is returning to the institution after time spent on active duty in the armed services or on an official religious mission. In bowl subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year to the maximum number of overall counters (85 total counters). In championship subdivision football, an institution may use the midyear replacement exception only if it previously has provided financial aid during that academic year that equals the maximum number of overall equivalencies or overall counters. (Revised: 4/20/99 effective 8/1/99, 6/8/99, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01, 8/2/05, 12/15/06, 1/14/08 effective 8/1/08, 4/2/10, 1/15/11)

15.5.6.3.6 Aid First Awarded After Second Year. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete who has been in residence at the certifying institution for at least two academic years may receive athletically related financial aid for the first time without such aid counting as an initial award, provided the aid falls within the overall grant limitation. (Adopted: 1/11/89, Revised: 1/10/90 effective 8/1/90)

15.5.6.3.7 Recruited Student-Athlete, Varsity Competition. [FBS/FCS] In accordance with Bylaw 15.5.1.2, a recruited student-athlete (per Bylaw 15.02.8) receiving institutional financial aid certified as having been granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability becomes an initial counter in the first academic year in which the student-athlete competes on the varsity level. (See Bylaw 15.5.1.2.1.) (Revised: 10/27/05 effective 8/1/06, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

15.5.6.3.8 Returning Two-Year Transfer. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete who previously was an initial counter and who transferred to a two-year college shall not be an initial counter upon return to the original institution.

15.5.6.3.9 Delayed Initial Counter Who Does Not Return to School. [FBS/FCS] A student-athlete who receives countable financial aid but whose status as an initial counter under this bylaw is delayed until the following academic year shall be counted against the initial limit the following academic year, regardless of whether the student-athlete reports for participation or attends the institution in that academic year.

15.5.6.4 Exceptions.

15.5.6.4.1 Voluntary Withdrawal. [FBS/FCS] An institution may replace a counter who voluntarily withdraws from the football team by providing the financial aid to another student who already has enrolled in the institution and is a member of the football squad. For this replacement to occur, the counter must withdraw prior to the first day of classes or before the first game of the season, whichever is earlier, and provide the institution with a signed statement releasing the institution from its obligation to provide institutional financial aid and verifying the voluntary nature of the withdrawal. The institution may immediately (beginning with the fall term) award the financial aid to a student-athlete who has been a member of the team for at least one academic year and has not previously received athletically related financial aid. A student-athlete who has not been a member of the team for at least one academic year may not receive the financial aid during the fall term, but may receive it in a following term (e.g., spring semester, winter quarter). (Revised: 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05)
 
I understand that but a lot times those non qualifying issues come up after signing day. Just like this Peterson stuff and Litaker. I don't know the rule on this but what if a kid signed and then gets arrested or other issues that keeps him from enrolling. Does that still count towards the 25 or is there a different rule in place for that? Hell as long as you have room in the 85 number, everyone should be able to use the full 25 if a situation like I mentioned happened. It's not an unfair advantage for anyone. Really truth and honesty isn't a part of recruiting anymore. It's so cutthroat from both sides.
I think in the case of the arrest he counts to the 25 as a counter, but not the 85 as a scholarship. its still punishing perceived bad behavior. punishing both sides hopefully leads to less incidents as more people have to take it seriously. Petersen was a known question mark, not sure about Litaker.
 
If you sign, you count. Lawless and Peterson signed an LOI; Litaker and Norwood didn't. None of them count against the 85 until they enroll, and Peterson is the only who can do that. UT released Lawless.
 
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I think in the case of the arrest he counts to the 25 as a counter, but not the 85 as a scholarship. its still punishing perceived bad behavior. punishing both sides hopefully leads to less incidents as more people have to take it seriously. Petersen was a known question mark, not sure about Litaker.

I understand the accountability part on both sides, but it's hard to know if a recruit will have any issues before they can get there. Especially if there's never been a history of trouble by him. Like at Ole Miss. They didn't punish the kids for mistakes made my Freeze and others and got to transfer without penalty. Certain exceptions could be added to protect both sides equally.
 
So we're making assumptions, but you know for sure just can't explain how it's getting done? Not sure why you're being so smug here. We were having a conversation, not a pissing contest.
He can’t turn it off. Fake nice guy with a god complex.
 
I think they are liking some already on campus in the secondary than what they thought they would. Taylor and Thompson especially so may not go as heavy there.
They were always going to take 3-4 corners. Nothing in recent activity indicates otherwise.
 

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