Anyone see the NOVA special last night:Evolution vs. Intelligent Design

#228
#228
BigPapaVol said:
All the other aside, disbelieving implies a level of knowledge upon which a decision can be made, or active choice. That's a far cry form ignorance.
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"A person can profess any creed he likes, of course, but to really believe something, he must also believe that the belief under consideration is true. To believe that there is a God, for instance, is to believe that you are not just fooling yourself; it is to believe that you stand in some relation to God’s existence such that, if He didn’t exist, you wouldn’t believe in him."

That says a lot. I doubt there is anything that would get a true believer to believe God doesn't exist. To not be open to new evidence is to not have a truely open-minded belief.
 
#229
#229
Sabanocchio said:
It shouldn't, but the bible tells us it does.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. - Mark 16:16

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6


There are plenty more verses supporting this same belief. Let me pose this question to you: Jesus died for our sins, correct? So he died so that we would not go to hell. With me? If it were possible to avoid hell without ever knowing Jesus, then what was the point of him dying on the cross in the first place?

Another verse I found that supports my claim that god DOES want us to fear him:

But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. (Luke 12:5)

I came to my beliefs after a thorough study of the bible. It was the bible itself that led to my non-belief.
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Kind of like the Church of Christ believing mechanical music is cause for damnation. There is more hypocrisy in organized religion than any place on earth.
 
#230
#230
T-TownVol said:
1) This verse is about people that do hear the Gospel and do not believe.
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Does it not also imply the alternative? Read my above post. The implications are quite clear. Why does the bible direct it's followers to spread the word if the ignorant are in no danger? How can you spread the word to those who do not know it and not feel guilty for endangering their immortal souls???

2) I Thessalonians 1: 8-9 says nothing of the sort. I believe you have a verse confused.
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Fixed.

3) Once again, speaking to a group of people that have the opportunity to believe.
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See above. That is not a poor explanation. How do you interpret "No one comes to the father but by me" in any other way?
4) The fact that you HAVE heard the message kind of negates that point doesn't it?
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Not in any way. It may for me, but if you can avoid hell without knowing Jesus as you claim, then his death was entirely pointless. How can you argue that?
5) I fear God's wrath. Of course the Bible tells us to fear hell.
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The bible tells you to fear god.
6) Study of the Bible is not understanding the Bible. The scriptures that you have given above, prove that to me.
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Clearly.
 
#231
#231
volmanbill said:
Kind of like the Church of Christ believing mechanical music is cause for damnation. There is more hypocrisy in organized religion than any place on earth.
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That is actually not true. The Church of Christ will tell you that anyone who is not baptized will go to hell. There is no absolution on instrumental music. You will find very few people who think this is the case. Some may tell you it is a sin, but not cause for damnation.
 
#234
#234
Sabanocchio said:
That is actually not true. The Church of Christ will tell you that anyone who is not baptized will go to hell. There is no absolution on instrumental music. You will find very few people who think this is the case. Some may tell you it is a sin, but not cause for damnation.
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100% true
 
#235
#235
T-TownVol said:
God's will is for every one to be saved. Nowhere does it say that any one that has never heard the Gospel will not be saved.
Jeasus came to Earth to fullfill the word of God and die as a ransom for our sins for all that believe on him.
To beleive you have to hear the word.
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I just illustrated very specifically that the bible indeed does say this. Ask your pastor. I'm sure you'll be informed differently.

The Bible does not tell us specifically about what happens to those who have never heard. But it does say that Jesus is the only way to salvation (Acts 4:12). If it is possible that someone who has not heard the gospel can be saved, it must be through Jesus Christ and him alone (John 14:6). But, it could not be that a person who is not heard of Jesus can make it to heaven based upon being good since that would violate the scriptural teaching that no one is good (Rom. 3:10-12).
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#240
#240
pope_looks_like_palpatine_02.jpg
 
#241
#241
volmanbill said:
So some "rules" are meant to be broken and others are not?

Sounds like a Pope issue to me.
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This not a "rule" in the Bible as it pertains to salvation. The c of C has come up with this and many other "rules" on their own.
 
#243
#243
T-TownVol said:
Rom 3: 10-18 are a collection of OT quotations spoken by Paul to illustrate that all man is sinful....once again, spoken to a group that was there to hear his words, not to imply that people that have not heard are damned.

You have done your homework on finding scriptures that seem to back up your belief. But, as you pointed out to me, context is key.
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It is the belief that most I have discussed the issue hold. I am somewhat surprised that it is being disputed since, as I have said and has yet to be addressed, implying that anyone is safe from eternal damnation simply by not knowing that jesus died for your sins actually pretty much negates the purpose behind the act to begin with. Of course that opens an entirely new can of worms....
 
#247
#247
T-TownVol said:
I have addressed it, you chose to ignor the answer. Every single example/verse you site is not discussing those that have NEVER been exposed to the Gospel.

You keep questioning why Jesus came to die IF it was not necessary. It was necessary, so that all who hear the Gospel have the choice to believe or not.

Do not over think it. It is very simple to understand. I would love for YOU to talk to my Pastor about it.
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My grandfather is a preacher. Trust me. If I have any questions about the professions of the bible, I have resources. He is of the belief that those who do not get to hear the gospel are condemned right along with those that refuse to believe it.

I disagree with your interpretation of the verses I provided. They are not excluding those that have not been exposed. As I have said, what would be the point of missionary work if this were true? That hasn't been answered either.
 
#249
#249
Sabanocchio said:
My grandfather is a preacher. Trust me. If I have any questions about the professions of the bible, I have resources. He is of the belief that those who do not get to hear the gospel are condemned right along with those that refuse to believe it.

I disagree with your interpretation of the verses I provided. They are not excluding those that have not been exposed. As I have said, what would be the point of missionary work if this were true? That hasn't been answered either.
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#250
#250
Romans 1: 18 - 23 clearly tells us that NO ONE, not even one who has not heard of the Bible or of Christ, has an excuse for not honoring God because the whole created world reveals him.

I did my own research and I was wrong! It does not seem fair, but it is there in black and white. Sorry for taking the wrong side of this issue.
 
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