Are You A Leftist Who Hates Inequality? Here’s How To Pay Your ‘Fair Share’!

[norrislakevol]

How do you figure exactly how much you make?

For the average person receiving a paycheck that would mean if they were paid 100k by their employers, then the feds get 15k. For a business, the profit that you have made would be taxed 15 percent.

 

[ButchPlz]

I don't have a quibble about the idea of flat percentage applied to everyone. The percentage is fair in that it applies to everyone. But I am curious about the justification for the person making 10M to pay 1.5M compared to the person paying 15K.

Is the person taxed at 1.5M using 10 times the government's administration and resources? Does the military protect them 10 times more than the other person?

Or is it simply that they have more so they should pay more?

That discussion is precisely why I'm basically only in favor of a flat sales tax or consumption tax or return to stronger/higher tariffs- income tax is not only criminal, but an insane way for the government to try to cover what it does.

 

[norrislakevol]

That discussion is precisely why I'm basically only in favor of a flat sales tax or consumption tax or return to stronger/higher tariffs- income tax is not only criminal, but an insane way for the government to try to cover what it does.

I would certainly be on board for that too. That may be the fairest way to go.

 

[McDad]

You may have overlooked it, but I was proposing a 15 percent tax for all. 15 percent of 10 million is 1.5 million. 15 percent of 100 thousand is 15 thousand. It would be an equal percentage across the board of what is earned.

Completely understand. Agree it is fair in the sense the percentage applied applied to everyone equally. I don't have an argument with the premise.

I am trying to rationalize if someone who pays 10x more uses 10x more government admin and resources?

 

[hog88]

For the average person receiving a paycheck that would mean if they were paid 100k by their employers, then the feds get 15k. For a business, the profit that you have made would be taxed 15 percent.

I ask because I see some people that advocate for flat/fair taxes say it should be the revenue that is taxed. A business can make 10mil in a year and still not make anything.

 

[ButchPlz]

I ask because I see some people that advocate for flat/fair taxes say it should be the revenue that is taxed. A business can make 10mil in a year and still not make anything.

Don't even get me started on the revenue/profit discussion. The average leftoid (edit: really anybody beyond leftoids too, but about none of them have any idea) has zero concept of the very basics.

Example: in the small business training projects I've participated in, 75% of the participants couldn't understand why they didn't see all the money from their sales in their bank account every month.

 

[McDad]

That discussion is precisely why I'm basically only in favor of a flat sales tax or consumption tax or return to stronger/higher tariffs- income tax is not only criminal, but an insane way for the government to try to cover what it does.

How do you feel about a flat, fixed amount applying to everyone who has full expression of their constitutional rights regardless of income?

 

[ButchPlz]

How do you feel about a flat, fixed amount applying to everyone who has full expression of their constitutional rights regardless of income?

Like a flat $5K tax per year per person or something?

 

[norrislakevol]

Completely understand. Agree it is fair in the sense the percentage applied applied to everyone equally. I don't have an argument with the premise.

I am trying to rationalize if someone who pays 10x more uses 10x more government admin and resources?

I do see your angle, that is why a national sales tax may be even more fair. Those big businesses would be making a lot of big purchases. The rich individuals would be as well, so I think that it would work out about the same honestly.

 

[norrislakevol]

I ask because I see some people that advocate for flat/fair taxes say it should be the revenue that is taxed. A business can make 10mil in a year and still not make anything.

Right, a flat tax would be on profit/take home pay only.

 

[McDad]

Like a flat $5K tax per year per person or something?

That's the premise, yes.

 

[hog88]

Question about a national sales/consumption tax:

How many times would a widget be taxed? If I buy a truck load of widgets from the manufacture for resell do I pay the sales/consumption tax then when I sell a widget does the consumer also pay? Or is does it only apply to the final user?

 

[hog88]

That's the premise, yes.

Would the tax begin at birth or come into play at some point like when a person reaches the age of majority?

 

[ButchPlz]

That's the premise, yes.

Makes more sense to me than most things, but I think you're just kind of running into the reverse discussion about consumption of government resources. I'd imagine both the rich and the poorer folks are the biggest "users" of government resources (not by 10x or whatever earlier) so I think that could be used as an argument against the people that bleat about it being a higher proportion of poor people's income.

Of course all of this would require the destruction of a lot of the federal government unless we wanted to be taxed at $100K+ per year per person. Which is fine by me.

 

[ButchPlz]

Question about a national sales/consumption tax:

How many times would a widget be taxed? If I buy a truck load of widgets from the manufacture for resell do I pay the sales/consumption tax then when I sell a widget does the consumer also pay? Or is does it only apply to the final user?

I think it ought to apply only to the end user, but I can see the hairiness that may cause.

 

[McDad]

I do see your angle, that is why a national sales tax may be even more fair. Those big businesses would be making a lot of big purchases. The rich individuals would be as well, so I think that it would work out about the same honestly.

I agree that approach is a bit better because those who are purchasing more can pay more with the understanding they will be paying more in taxes. Somewhat psuedo-voluntary.

At some point in our history, we accepted the idea that those who make more income are responsible for more in taxes. I cannot see how those people use more government than everyone else. So, in my tedious way I am trying to introduce the notion that all Americans are equally responsible for paying for government equally.

 

[McDad]

Would the tax begin at birth or come into play at some point like when a person reaches the age of majority?

Full constitutional rights at the age of 18 or 21 depending on your view. Their flat amount would start that same year.

 

[norrislakevol]

That's the premise, yes.

If we do that math on that, and multiply 5k by 350 million people, then you get 1.75 trillion in collected tax revenue. the feds currently collect about 4.9 trillion per year and still run a huge deficit. The losers in D.C. would actually have to make huge cuts then.

 

[McDad]

Question about a national sales/consumption tax:

How many times would a widget be taxed? If I buy a truck load of widgets from the manufacture for resell do I pay the sales/consumption tax then when I sell a widget does the consumer also pay? Or is does it only apply to the final user?

We tend to think of national sales tax applied at the retail level. But I like your question because the assumption it only applies at the retail level is faulty.

It would need to apply at all points where the widget was purchased from one person or legal entity by another person or legal entity.

 

[McDad]

Makes more sense to me than most things, but I think you're just kind of running into the reverse discussion about consumption of government resources. I'd imagine both the rich and the poorer folks are the biggest "users" of government resources (not by 10x or whatever earlier) so I think that could be used as an argument against the people that bleat about it being a higher proportion of poor people's income.

Of course all of this would require the destruction of a lot of the federal government unless we wanted to be taxed at $100K+ per year per person. Which is fine by me.

If we do that math on that, and multiply 5k by 350 million people, then you get 1.75 trillion in collected tax revenue. the feds currently collect about 4.9 trillion per year and still run a huge deficit. The losers in D.C. would actually have to make huge cuts then.

Part of the benefit of the fixed tax approach. The budget is divided by all who meet the criteria to pay taxes, let's say 250 Million people. No one can afford 100k a year in taxes. Spending would have to fall dramatically. Politicians would be forced to be fiscally responsible.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

Question about a national sales/consumption tax:

How many times would a widget be taxed? If I buy a truck load of widgets from the manufacture for resell do I pay the sales/consumption tax then when I sell a widget does the consumer also pay? Or is does it only apply to the final user?

In your final scenario, businesses would not be taxed at all?

 

[hog88]

I haven't worked out all the details in my head but ideally individuals and businesses should pay no tax to the federal government. My idea would look something like this:

The federal government collects it's revenue from fees, tariffs and the states. (and this is where it gets tricky for me) Each state ponies up the money using a (yet to be defined) formula to cover our mutual defense, regulation of interstate commerce and the other defined duties of the federal government in the constitution. It would be up to the individual states to collect taxes from it's residents be they individual or business.

 

[McDad]

I haven't worked out all the details in my head but ideally individuals and businesses should pay no tax to the federal government. My idea would look something like this:

The federal government collects it's revenue from fees, tariffs and the states. (and this is where it gets tricky for me) Each state ponies up the money using a (yet to be defined) formula to cover our mutual defense, regulation of interstate commerce and the other defined duties of the federal government in the constitution. It would be up to the individual states to collect taxes from it's residents be they individual or business.

This is a good approach, too. Each state equally responsible to cover mutual expenses or responsible proportional to their population? Does California and Wyoming pay the same?

 

[hog88]

We tend to think of national sales tax applied at the retail level. But I like your question because the assumption it only applies at the retail level is faulty.

It would need to apply at all points where the widget was purchased from one person or legal entity by another person or legal entity.

I could see that getting hairy, say papermills who own their own timberland, they would have most of their raw materials tax free?

 

[hog88]

In your final scenario, businesses would not be taxed at all?

I don't see the purpose of taxing businesses.