Arizona Pastor Arrested, Jailed for Holding Bible Study in Home

#26
#26
utvolpj said:
please don't quote me if you're going to type such nonsense. You should be well aware of my feelings on both
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Fair enough. Actually, I was going to say something about parking per your comment but went off on tangent.
 
#27
#27
lawgator1 said:
4.5 acres hosting meetings of Muslims who defy basic reasonable local ordinances for seven years = sharia law death training camp that must be carpet bombed.

4.5 acres hosting meetings of Christians who defy basic reasonable local ordinances for seven years = persecuted Christian martyr who is championed on Fox as hero.
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While I agree both should be left alone, I haven't heard of any Christian pastors flying planes into American office buildings lately. I can understand peoples thought processes on the issue. Public perception.
 
#28
#28
Just because his lot is 4.5 acres, doesn't mean a thing about having adequate storage for vehicles. That would undoubtedly be one of the code issues. If he's got people parking on grass, I imagine he'd need wheel stops and other things that I'm sure he didn't have. Of course, the only really practical issue would be whether or not he could get the cars onto his property and off the street.
 
#29
#29
According to a report in the Daily Mail the problem is code violations:
On June 11, 2009, Salman was charged with having no emergency exit signs over the doors, no handicaps parking spaces or handicap ramps
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And not actually having the meetings:
A January 4, 2010, ruling made it clear that the Salmans are not prohibited from running a church or hosting worship services on their property, but if they do so, they must be in compliance with fire and zoning codes.
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According to a local blog he turned up for his jail sentence and they sent him back home:

Pastor Michael Salman Reports to Jail Over Phoenix Home-Worship Flap, but Gets Turned Away; 60-Day Sentence Still Looms
 
#30
#30
Thrasher865 said:
Just because his lot is 4.5 acres, doesn't mean a thing about having adequate storage for vehicles. That would undoubtedly be one of the code issues. If he's got people parking on grass, I imagine he'd need wheel stops and other things that I'm sure he didn't have. Of course, the only really practical issue would be whether or not he could get the cars onto his property and off the street.
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volved said:
According to a report in the Daily Mail the problem is code violations:


And not actually having the meetings:


According to a local blog he turned up for his jail sentence and they sent him back home:

Pastor Michael Salman Reports to Jail Over Phoenix Home-Worship Flap, but Gets Turned Away; 60-Day Sentence Still Looms
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those would only apply if he was listed as a commercial property. Same codes don't apply to residential. It appears the city has taken it upon themselves to define the property and only because it's a bible study group. If 20 guys get together and have poker night I doubt they classify his house as a casino
 
#31
#31
utvolpj said:
very easily if you ignore it. Overkill but that's local govt for you

I just had it threatened on me when I had my kitchen done. Of course it was all about some personal thing between the plumber/inspector but in the end I had to pay to have it fixed and inspected



I believe it said he lives on 4.5 acres. I doubt parking is an issue
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According to the article I posted, you're correct. It still appears to have little to do with Anti-Christian sentiment, and more to do with neighbors being concerned about noise (he sometimes uses a PA system), and property values. It also states that, much to the neighbors' chagrin, the city has been giving him much assistance in getting his proper permits in order.
 
#32
#32
lawgator1 said:
I'm just tired of the right wing religious commentary masquerading as half-ass "reporting."
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You'd have to be tired of every single news outlet if half-assed "reporting" is what you hate. Let's not forget the worst offender of all, MSNBC.
 
#34
#34
My next door neighbor does something twice a month over at her house. I'm pretty sure it is some sort of Bible study group. There is only about 10 cars and it is a little annoying when they park in front of my mailbox, etc... but I can live with it.

If she, let's say, doubled the size of this event, I would probably have to try to stop it. Point being I don't know or care what is going on over there. If it becomes an intolerable nuisance it's infringing on people's rights.

I also know two people personally who were busted by codes for running small businesses (nithing to do with churchy stuff) out of their house. It happens.
 
#35
#35
s1216 said:
My next door neighbor does something twice a month over at her house. I'm pretty sure it is some sort of Bible study group. There is only about 10 cars and it is a little annoying when they park in front of my mailbox, etc... but I can live with it.

If she, let's say, doubled the size of this event, I would probably have to try to stop it. Point being I don't know or care what is going on over there. If it becomes an intolerable nuisance it's infringing on people's rights.

I also know two people personally who were busted by codes for running small businesses (nithing to do with churchy stuff) out of their house. It happens.
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is it illegal to park on your street? If not then I doubt you have much of a case besides the blocking of a mailbox/driveway.
 
#36
#36
utvolpj said:
is it illegal to park on your street? If not then I doubt you have much of a case besides the blocking of a mailbox/driveway.
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Well it is a gray area for sure. The cars already cause some minor traffic problems because the street is narrow. At some point it would be just too much. Have no idea who legally makes that call. But before it even came to that I would just say, "hey Debbie... this is getting to be a bit much"
 
#37
#37
Parking may cause neighbors to complain.

Its the failure to follow city codes for the place to be safe that seems more worrisome to the City.

Imagine what would happen if they had turned a blind eye and given this guy a pass, and then someone got hurt there due to sub-code problem? Maybe a fire or something?

Community would be outraged at the code enforcers.
 
#38
#38
I know here in knoxville you can park on a public road in the same direction as traffic. We had the cops called on us one night and they said we were fine and told us that you have to allow room for cars and emergency vehicles to pass through.
 
#39
#39
s1216 said:
But before it even came to that I would just say, "hey Debbie... this is getting to be a bit much"
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novel idea in today's society. I would do the same

lawgator1 said:
Parking may cause neighbors to complain.

Its the failure to follow city codes for the place to be safe that seems more worrisome to the City.

Imagine what would happen if they had turned a blind eye and given this guy a pass, and then someone got hurt there due to sub-code problem? Maybe a fire or something?

Community would be outraged at the code enforcers.
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it's up to code. Ever have friends over to your place? Would people be up in arms if a fire broke out and your house wasn't up to commercial code? Of course not so quit being silly
 
#40
#40
utvolpj said:
novel idea in today's society. I would do the same



it's up to code. Ever have friends over to your place? Would people be up in arms if a fire broke out and your house wasn't up to commercial code? Of course not so quit being silly
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Well, if it's zoned as residential, then he cannot hold these events there legally. Either way, he's in the wrong.

I'm sick of these pastors thinking they can corrupt America's youth!
 
#41
#41
From his video it seems he was working with the city at first but then they got into a dispute over definitions of types of occupancy. He says it is a gathering of friends, similar to a super bowl party of weekly poker match. Given it is for personal use, in his view, it shouldn't be coded the same as other public buildings.

The city says it fits their definition of public building (churches fall into this category), which would require all the ADA measures, emergency signs and occupancy limits. In most cases in this sort of dispute the city would just not issue an occupancy certificate, or they would condemn the building until it met code. I think at a certain point the pastor decided he couldn't beat them so he turned it into a religious issue.
 
#42
#42
Thrasher865 said:
Well, if it's zoned as residential, then he cannot hold these events there legally. Either way, he's in the wrong.

I'm sick of these pastors thinking they can corrupt America's youth!
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he's not allowed to have bible studies at his house? Not sure I understand
 
#43
#43
Thrasher865 said:
Well, if it's zoned as residential, then he cannot hold these events there legally. Either way, he's in the wrong.

I'm sick of these pastors thinking they can corrupt America's youth!
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You took a leap from a building code violation to corrupting youth. There is no evidence he is converting youth to be code violators.
 
#45
#45
cooking meth,no problem but you better not be having bible study.
 
#46
#46
They got Capone on bs tax codes. Sometimes things aren't always as they and most of the time there is more to the story.

Love the outrage LG at the "right" media leaving out details. That is what the lib media has done dor decades. Don't make it right but CNN and MSNBC report what they want and not all the news.
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#48
#48
He could of been having a regular fantasy baseball meeting and he would still be in violation of zoning violations. He was warned what he was doing was breaking the law, yet he kept doing it on a regular basis. If I lived in a neighborhood and ever Tuesday I didn't have a place to park because my neighbor has 10 plus cars parked up and down the road I would be mad and call the police. It wouldn't matter to me if he was worshiping God, the Devil, or just having party's.
 
#49
#49
govolsfraz said:
He could of been having a regular fantasy baseball meeting and he would still be in violation of zoning violations. He was warned what he was doing we breaking the law, yet he kept doing it on a regular basis. If I lived in a neighborhood and ever Tuesday I didn't have a place to park because my neighbor has 10 plus cars parked up and down the road I would be mad and call the police. It wouldn't matter to me if he was worshiping God, the Devil, or just having party's.
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it's not illegal to have people (even lots of people) over to your house in AZ and it's also not illegal to park on many streets. Also good luck calling the police if cars are legally parked on the street

To my knowledge there has been no release from the PD as to why his property needed to be zoned commercial and meet those codes. They claim it's a church but on what basis?
 
#50
#50
Not illegal to park on the street, but you can't park within X feet of a driveway, or a mailbox, or a fire hydrant. So, odds are, most people on the street are illegally parked.
 
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