athiests and agnostics know more about religion than churchgoers

#351
#351
"The majority of NT (New Testament) texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen on the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God. The Apologists spoke to haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally." - The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. XIV, p.296
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#352
#352
bamacheats said:
The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: "The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title The Trinitarian Dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." - New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. IV, p.299


It kills me how people don't do any research and will just blindly believe anything as important as eternal salvation.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

Well, sh*t! I did not expect you to actually have a source that might make any sense.
Still, you said that Peter didn't belive in the Trinity. They didn't just make up the concept of the Trinity in the fourth century. That is just when it became a bigger part of the church.
I encourage you to look at each of these passages, where the Trinity is clearly referenced.

1 Peter 1:2
Isaiah 48:16
Matthew 3:16-17
Matthew 28:18-20
Luke 3:21-22
John 14:26, 16:13-15
2 Corinthians 13:14
Galatians 4:6
Ephesians 2:18, 4:4-6, 5:18-20
1 John 5:7
 
#354
#354
gsvol said:
Has God disavowed his adoption of the nation of Israel recently?? I must have missed that.
Click to expand...

Yes. They rejected his Son, his Ransom, his resurrection, and his Kingship, and still do.

However, for those who believe Jews are a protected and chosen people, and that our salvation involves helping to serve and protect that nation, explain why Jewish religion rejects teachings such as hellfire and the trinity, the 2 central doctrines to modern Christianity, but somehow God is not real concerned about how he's worshipped, any old belief will do?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#355
#355
Panthro said:
Well, sh*t! I did not expect you to actually have a source that might make any sense.
Still, you said that Peter didn't belive in the Trinity. They didn't just make up the concept of the Trinity in the fourth century. That is just when it became a bigger part of the church.
I encourage you to look at each of these passages, where the Trinity is clearly referenced.

1 Peter 1:2
Isaiah 48:16
Matthew 3:16-17
Matthew 28:18-20
Luke 3:21-22
John 14:26, 16:13-15
2 Corinthians 13:14
Galatians 4:6
Ephesians 2:18, 4:4-6, 5:18-20
1 John 5:7
Click to expand...
Posted via VolNation Mobile

That reference should not be hard for you to understand, its printed by your own church. Clearly admits that the Apostolic Fathers, which definitely includes Peter, had no thoughts, ideas, or teachings of a Trinity.
 
Last edited:
#357
#357
bamacheats said:
Because the Bible is my religion, not a church.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

One of the few things you have said that I agree with. I believe that you are mistaken about what "angle" every one else is coming from here. I, for one, am not defending any one Church, just the words of the Bible as you say you are......but.............
That still does not answer the actual question....let me restate a little better.......what does it take to be a christian and why do you not seem to be to sure of your salvation?
 
Last edited:
#358
#358
Why is it that so many scriptures people try to use to prove the Trinity leave out the Holy Ghost? OS it the red headed step child? Very few instances are mentioned together.

Example you gave 1 John 5:7,8. The KJV is one of few versions that use the phrase "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." The Dy, also adds it, but the RS, NE, NW, TEV, JB, NAB, all leave it out.

F.H.A. Scrivener wrote regarding this passage, "We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox gloss on ver. 8: that from the Latin they crept into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim." - A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third edition, pg.654

Thats an admittance from a well revered Catholic, but I'm sure you're already familiar since you've done so much digging and research into the Vatican's teachings.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#359
#359
T-TownVol said:
One of the few things you have said that I agree with. I believe that you are mistaken about what "angle" every one else is coming from here. I, for one, am not defending any one Church, just the words of the Bible as you say you are......but.............
That still does not answer the actual question....let me restate a little better.......what does it take to be a christian and why do you not seem to be to sure of your salvation?
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone has a right to claim that someone is not a Christian, if that person claims that they that they are. Claiming to be a Christian comes with a responsibility to prove to yourself what Jesus taught. Millions of people blindly believe, I just don't want to be blind.
As regards my own salvation, I feel I'm sincere in my search and Christ will judge me accordingly, but I'm only 35 years old and only 20 years into a diligent search. I'll get there.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#360
#360
bamacheats said:
Why is it that so many scriptures people try to use to prove the Trinity leave out the Holy Ghost? OS it the red headed step child? Very few instances are mentioned together.

Example you gave 1 John 5:7,8. The KJV is one of few versions that use the phrase "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." The Dy, also adds it, but the RS, NE, NW, TEV, JB, NAB, all leave it out.

F.H.A. Scrivener wrote regarding this passage, "We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox gloss on ver. 8: that from the Latin they crept into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim." - A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third edition, pg.654

Thats an admittance from a well revered Catholic, but I'm sure you're already familiar since you've done so much digging and research into the Vatican's teachings.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

What is the point you are trying to make, exactly? That you are just as cynical as the atheists originally discussed in this thread? So many people become consumed with finding something to prove a point they are tyring ot make, that they ignore any other bit of evidence that might offer an alternative.
This is why religion has faults. People don't use it as a guide to help them find a closer relationship with God. They use it as something to disprove or close-mindedly argue about.
Peace be with you.
 
#361
#361
bamacheats said:
I don't think anyone has a right to claim that someone is not a Christian, if that person claims that they that they are. Claiming to be a Christian comes with a responsibility to prove to yourself what Jesus taught. Millions of people blindly believe, I just don't want to be blind.
As regards my own salvation, I feel I'm sincere in my search and Christ will judge me accordingly, but I'm only 35 years old and only 20 years into a diligent search. I'll get there.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

Do you go to church?
 
#362
#362
Panthro said:
What is the point you are trying to make, exactly? That you are just as cynical as the atheists originally discussed in this thread? So many people become consumed with finding something to prove a point they are tyring ot make, that they ignore any other bit of evidence that might offer an alternative.
This is why religion has faults. People don't use it as a guide to help them find a closer relationship with God. They use it as something to disprove or close-mindedly argue about.
Peace be with you.
Click to expand...

You asked for sources, I provided, but I'm the cynic? I have a 4" binder full of resources about the teaching of the trinity, but for your argument I only used a few that come directly from the Vatican or with its approval.

You provided nothing bit a list of verses, that are often misapplied and taken out of context, and I gave you a bit of research from a Catholic authority and you disagree? You're not disagreeing with me, your disagreeing with fellow Catholics.

Thanks for the well wishes. I'm not a judge of humans, only teachings.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#365
#365
bamacheats said:
Yes. They rejected his Son, his Ransom, his resurrection, and his Kingship, and still do.

However, for those who believe Jews are a protected and chosen people, and that our salvation involves helping to serve and protect that nation, explain why Jewish religion rejects teachings such as hellfire and the trinity, the 2 central doctrines to modern Christianity, but somehow God is not real concerned about how he's worshipped, any old belief will do?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

Well they still believe in the Messiah but just don't believe Jesus was the Messiah and even then that isn't universal, there are more than a few who are Jewish by heritage but do embrace Jesus as the Son of God.

The children of Israel turned away from God on numerous occasions but I don't think He has disinherited them, even now.
 
#366
#366
gsvol said:
Well they still believe in the Messiah but just don't believe Jesus was the Messiah and even then that isn't universal, there are more than a few who are Jewish by heritage but do embrace Jesus as the Son of God.

The children of Israel turned away from God on numerous occasions but I don't think He has disinherited them, even now.
Click to expand...

Not as individuals for sure, but the nation as a whole rejected him. God didn't reject them, they rejected both God and the messiah.

For sure, God forgave them over and over again, I get really frustrated by reading Isaiah, but God didn't disinherit them, they did the leaving. There was no, and is no, repentance on the side of Israel as a whole. That's why the Kingdom of God became open to Gentiles, starting with Cornelius.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#367
#367
bamacheats said:
I don't think anyone has a right to claim that someone is not a Christian, if that person claims that they that they are. Claiming to be a Christian comes with a responsibility to prove to yourself what Jesus taught. Millions of people blindly believe, I just don't want to be blind.
As regards my own salvation, I feel I'm sincere in my search and Christ will judge me accordingly, but I'm only 35 years old and only 20 years into a diligent search. I'll get there.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

I did not say if you were or you aren't. I am just trying to get an understanding of what you feel it takes to be a Christian. No more or no less. Sorry if you think I have bad reasons for asking, I do not.

I will offer that, the Bible teaches that a clearer understanding comes with the faith that you seem to not give much importance to.
 
#369
#369
ridethelightening said:
Might want to keep studying
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip. One thing that I am certain of, I'm not blindly believing some guy in the pulpit who is on a payroll and has a financial incentive to tell me what he thinks that I want to hear, or buys his sermons on the internet.

Christ foretold a great apostasy would set in after he and the apostles were gone and few seem to care to do any research to make sure that they are not part of it.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#370
#370
T-TownVol said:
The Church, and not a local demonimation, does not want your money unless you give it freely and for the right reason.
Click to expand...

Go and ignore the collection plate 3 times in a row and see what happens.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#371
#371
T-TownVol said:
I did not say if you were or you aren't. I am just trying to get an understanding of what you feel it takes to be a Christian. No more or no less. Sorry if you think I have bad reasons for asking, I do not.

I will offer that, the Bible teaches that a clearer understanding comes with the faith that you seem to not give much importance to.
Click to expand...
You're a Christian if you say you're a Christian unless Christ says otherwise. If someone says that they are I take them for their word.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#373
#373
bamacheats said:
You're a Christian if you say you're a Christian unless Christ says otherwise. If someone says that they are I take them for their word.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
Click to expand...

So, there is nothing that is required?
I agree that we are not to be the judge.
 
#374
#374
T-TownVol said:
So, there is nothing that is required?
I agree that we are not to be the judge.
Click to expand...

I think there is a lot to be required, that's why I research so much, I want to know. But all I can do is explain my beliefs to others, I have no right to tell anyone whether or not they are a Christian or not. I raise my girls how I think is right but I always stress that they don't do or believe anything just because I told them. They're still too young to fully comprehend that so I can't expound to them but I still have them explain how they learned in school. I don't have to agree with someone to respect what they believe.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#375
#375
Actually, there is not "a lot" required for salvation, but I think I get where you are coming from now, thanks.
Carry on.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top