athiests and agnostics know more about religion than churchgoers

[BeecherVol]

Show me which part is wrong:

1. Burning for eternity in hell is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to one.

2.People have to make their own choice, and are subject to many different factors/life situations that can hinder/help them come to the Lord. The way to heaven is narrow, most will not make it.

3. All babies are incapable of sin, and thus will automatically avoid hell if they die.



So if the number 1 thing is to save eternal souls from hell fire, isn't the best and most efficient way to kill them before they have a chance to sin?

This is what we are being told here.

1. True
2. True - everyone has a choice
3. True

As to the last, would that conflict with the murder commandment? Not to mention many other commandments through the Bible?

Its not my decision where you go, or what you do, no different than any other child.

 

[IPorange]

1. True
2. True - everyone has a choice
3. True

As to the last, would that conflict with the murder commandment? Not to mention many other commandments through the Bible?

Its not my decision where you go, or what you do, no different than any other child.

It'd be worth it, if you were saving so many souls, right?

Besides , you could always repent later.

 

[gsvol]

Oh god... I think we're having a non-volatile discussion. I'm gonna take a deep breath.

Okay...

touching on not ruling out the spiritual realm... I see what you're saying. It's why I think anyone who says they are 100% atheist is lying to themselves... just as any religious folks who completely rule out the possibility of being wrong are simply afraid of the dark truth that this life is all one has. Ignorance goes both ways. The main point here is that none of us know the answer because it has yet to be uncovered, therefore we should always keep our minds open, which is why I've studied religion as much as I have (both in school and on my own accord... I'm a curious soul).

I was only semi-sure about question 15 because I learned that at some point in high school... it was definitely a doozy.

As far as prayer... I myself have tried meditation. Specifically, I've used the method of chanting the name of god relentlessly until one briefly realizes god. I myself have done so multiple times for as long as 2 hours and never attained that realization. It is why I am convinced that I lack the necessary faith to be spiritual.

I have opened my mind to the concept of reincarnation more than any other religious facet strictly because I've experienced deja vu a great deal throughout my 21 years. If you ever take the time to look into the links between deja vu and reincarnation, you'll find it quite fascinating.

finally, in response to your inquiry about what one loses in devoting themselves to a deity... it goes back to what I said. If one follows a certain belief strictly because of the "might as well" factor, then what does that say about the strength of a person's faith? The vibe I get from it is fear. However, to answer your question... one would lose a great deal of time and energy in their (possible) one and only life if they were wrong. The way I see it, I've got another 50 or 60 years to experience the world; probably less. I'd like to use those years absorbing everything in the world around me without having to worry about the sins I commit or the sulfuric pits I'll burn in for taking drugs, committing adultry/premarital sex, lying for self-gain, or whatever trouble I've managed/will manage to get myself into.

Basically, I really hate the thought of answering to some celestial being and being punished for simply spending my life having fun.

As for meditation, try this, for one 60 minute period sit and remain reasonably still while keeping the mind totally quiet.

If you can't do it the first try, designate an hour each day until you accomplish the feat, I'm sure anyone who does will learn something, to define what you may have learned my be difficult to get across to someone who isn't inclined to try it themselves.

Of course meditation and prayer aren't exactly the same.

You might consider studying the Tao.

I didn't ask what you might lose by devoting yourself to a diety, I asked what one might lose just giving prayer a try.

I'm not selling fire insurance.

Actually you seem to be completely ignorant of the value and purpose of the ransom.

And as to your "Theological school" question, the hypocritical Pharisees and Saducees asked the same of Jesus' apostles. The only thing taught at theological schools are traditions of men and pagan customs adopted by "christians" such as the upcoming Halloween which is so overtly demonic I can't believe anyone who follows Christ can find it harmless.

No matter what anyone teaches you, parents, pastors, preachers, etc., its irresponsible to blindly believe it and not prove it to yourself.
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Let me assure you that isn't the only thing taught in theological schools.

Not true. There is unforgivable sin. We have ability for atonement because we battle to overcome inherited sin. Adam didn't. He was without sin. He overtly, willingly, conscientiously, without regard for God, blatantly disobeyed, knowing it came with a death sentence. God didn't say that he would be destroyed immediately, he said he would die in "that day" he ate from it. The Hebrew language expression used didn't mean a 24 hour period, it referred to a general time period that would be known by context. Same reason these idiot "creationists" believe Earth is 6000 years old when evidence from stars light prove without doubt its been here multi-million years at least. Time is a creation of God, he is not governed by it, he governs it, he's especially not bound by 24 hour time periods since Earth is not his domain.
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But the whole reason for God asking Adam not to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was for the good of Adam and He banished Adam from Eden because he didn't want Adam to partake of the tree of life and be condemned to living eternally in such a state.

To God an hour may be as a thousand years and a thousand years may be as just one day.

To me faith only comes with evidence. Hope is minus evidence. It's been my experience that the majority who claim to have faith in reality just hope because they can provide no evidence for what they hope other than its just common opinion or that's what their daddy told them.
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But your experience isn't the end all of things.

You probably have never really encountered someone whose eyes have been opened to spiritual things.

 

[BeecherVol]

It'd be worth it, if you were saving so many souls, right?

Besides , you could always repent later.

You are giving the christian too much credit with your first comment.
As to the repentance, if killing babies is the way to go why would you need to repent? Because you are not commanded to kill babies to save their soul. As stated before, they have the right to their choice, that is out of my hands.

 

[IPorange]

You are giving the christian too much credit with your first comment.
As to the repentance, if killing babies is the way to go why would you need to repent? Because you are not commanded to kill babies to save their soul. As stated before, they have the right to their choice, that is out of my hands.

But one could ensure they went to heaven. If one honestly believed in a heaven and a hell, and that they could ENSURE a child could avoid that worst of worst fates, that the spiritual world was all that really mattered, killing their child would be a consideration.

I didn't make the rules, and you said I was correct.

 

[BeecherVol]

But one could ensure they went to heaven. If one honestly believed in a heaven and a hell, and that they could ENSURE a child could avoid that worst of worst fates, that the spiritual world was all that really mattered, killing their child would be a consideration.

I didn't make the rules, and you said I was correct.

You have made some correct statements that I agree with.

As well as the bold (in which I didn't make them either).
But according to the Bible, are you leaving out any "rules" or commands?

 

[lumberjack4]

As stated before, they have the right to their choice, that is out of my hands.

If they have a right to choose, why does god let babies die before they have the chance to choose?

 

[BeecherVol]

If they have a right to choose, why does god let babies die before they have the chance to choose?

Im not referring to when they are the age of an infant.
That leads back to the point why they don't find Hell if they do.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Show me which part is wrong:

1. Burning for eternity in hell is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to one.

2. People have to make their own choices, and are subject to many different factors/life situations that can hinder/help them come to the Lord. The way to heaven is narrow, most will not make it.

3. All babies are incapable of sin, and thus will automatically avoid hell if they die.



So if the number 1 thing is to save eternal souls from hell fire, isn't the best and most efficient way to kill them before they have a chance to sin?

This is what we are being told here.

Who is telling you this? I've yet to see this being told except as a swipe.

 

[CSpindizzy]

But one could ensure they went to heaven. If one honestly believed in a heaven and a hell, and that they could ENSURE a child could avoid that worst of worst fates, that the spiritual world was all that really mattered, killing their child would be a consideration.

I didn't make the rules, and you said I was correct.

It's not anyone's job to "ensure they went to heaven". This 'logic' is completely counter to everything in the Bible.

 

[lumberjack4]

Im not referring to when they are the age of an infant.
That leads back to the point why they don't find Hell if they do.

So you have the right to choose as long as you manage to not get whacked by an uncaring mother? That's cruel.
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[BeecherVol]

So you have the right to choose as long as you manage to not get whacked by an uncaring mother? That's cruel.
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At that stage of their life what are they choosing? What did you choose? Nothing at that point, due to your ability to not be able to. No different than anyone else.

As to the "whacking", the mother made a choice that she is responsible for. Why? Because she has the ability to decide and chose.

Thats the difference between her and her child, and that is the separation God makes.

 

[bamacheats]

But one could ensure they went to heaven. If one honestly believed in a heaven and a hell, and that they could ENSURE a child could avoid that worst of worst fates, that the spiritual world was all that really mattered, killing their child would be a consideration.

I didn't make the rules, and you said I was correct.

No need to worry that babies are in Hell because there is no such place of torment. It's a scare tactic. That's why the Catholic Church had to come up with purgatory to explain where unbaptized babies were because they jumped the gun and said if you weren't baptized you're going to burn. They didn't think it through enough. Even the Catholic Church backed off this teaching in recent years.

Ironic really, the Catholic Church trying to scare people into believing. Not like them at all.
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[lumberjack4]

At that stage of their life what are they choosing? What did you choose? Nothing at that point, due to your ability to not be able to. No different than anyone else.

Wait a minute. Didn't John the Baptist leap for joy in his mothers womb because he was filled with the Holy Ghost? It would seem he made a choice. Hmmm. Something doesn't add up.
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[BeecherVol]

Wait a minute. Didn't John the Baptist leap for joy in his mothers womb because he was filled with the Holy Ghost? It would seem he made a choice. Hmmm. Something doesn't add up.
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To believe that you would have to recall the rest of the story about John the Baptist. Before, during and after this event.

 

[gsvol]

I struggled with being "religious" for 35 years. I thank God every day now that said burden has been lifted.

I knew a man once who told me he had been an ordained minister, had presided over numerous wedding ceremonies, had preached funerals and pastored churches but wasn't even saved himself at the time.

He felt much the way you do.

I've concluded that when people die they are just dead.
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Just because you have concluded such does not make it so.

Evidently you don't believe Jesus had the power to call forth Lazarus from the tomb or that He Himself was ressurected from the dead.

I found that odd as well. Makes you suspect some of the other results as well. That's Catholicism 101 right there.

Again, I trust PEW polls far less than those here who believe not at all the word of God.

Its a logical conclusion based on your belief system.

No that isn't logical at all, you fail to grasp even the bare minimum about what Christians believe but your statement does go a long way in explaining your lame defense of islam in which there is no personal choice given.

 

[CSpindizzy]

To believe that you would have to recall the rest of the story about John the Baptist. Before, during and after this event.

Therein lies the problem....picking and choosing select verses and taking out of context.

 

[gsvol]

I hope God puts some one in your life that can "clear up" your thought process on this because what you just said is SO far from reality that it is sad.

Sin is a WILLFUL act. See if you can put the rest of the puzzle together with that thought in mind.

I always think it sad myself when anyone seems to be completely unaware of their own soul.

Show me which part is wrong:

1. Burning for eternity in hell is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to one.

2. People have to make their own choices, and are subject to many different factors/life situations that can hinder/help them come to the Lord. The way to heaven is narrow, most will not make it.

3. All babies are incapable of sin, and thus will automatically avoid hell if they die.



So if the number 1 thing is to save eternal souls from hell fire, isn't the best and most efficient way to kill them before they have a chance to sin?

This is what we are being told here.

1. I can't think of anything worse.

2. We don't know how many or how few.

3. We are born into a sinful state.

No! Some of you guys are starting to sound like the mother who put her baby in the microwave. Sort of scary.

It isn't up to the Christian to save souls, he cannot do that, only the Lord is capable of that.

Jesus loves me, this i know, for the Bible tells me so... :whistling:

Red and yellow, black and white, we are prescious in his sight.

 

[bamacheats]

Just because you have concluded such does not make it so.

Evidently you don't believe Jesus had the power to call forth Lazarus from the tomb or that He Himself was ressurected from the dead.

Lazarus is a great example. Lazarus, nor anyone else that was resurrected, came alive saying, "what the hell? I was just kicking it in heaven. Why'd you bring me back here for?" And no one ever said that because they were dead, and when you're dead you're just dead.

I do believe in resurrection, and I believe some are resurrected to heaven. I'm not sure who but that's fine because I don't have the responsibility to judge.

I do know there is no torment. Life is a gift from God. The opposite of life is death, not torture.
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[lumberjack4]

Therein lies the problem....picking and choosing select verses and taking out of context.

How was that taken out of context?
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[CSpindizzy]

What of those not resurrected to heaven?

 

[CSpindizzy]

How was that taken out of context?
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What choice did John make? What was your point in that example?

 

[lumberjack4]

3. We are born into a sinful state.

It would seem many Christians on this board disagree.
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[lumberjack4]

What choice did John make? What was your point in that example?

If he was filled with the Holy Ghost I am assuming he chose god. Thereby showing that the Bible seems to say that unborn infants are able to chose between heaven or hell. If of course you believe the Bible.
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[bamacheats]

What of those not resurrected to heaven?

Not real sure. Probably just stay dead. Cease to exist. Psalms 37 mentions the meek will reside on Earth forever and the wicked will be no more. I've heard some claim that's symbolic but I don't get any symbolism from it. Sounds literal to me I just don't know who exactly the "meek" are. I'm cool with either. Maybe its all them dead babies that have been mentioned.
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