Athletes in favor of gay marriage rights

#151
#151
nbakerld said:
Or no income tax. If we eliminated income tax, the Federal government would still be collecting the same amount of revenue they collected 11 years ago! And we could cut out the entire IRS in our spending budget. Everybody wins (unless you work for the IRS).

I like Ron Paul's 10% Opt-out plan. Brilliant.

YouTube - ‪Ron Paul's Full Speech at CPAC 2011: The Brushfires of Freedom Are Burning!‬‏
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Ha. No income tax wouldn't even be that drastic of a change. I may be wrong, but I don't think even 50% of us pay income tax right now.
 
#154
#154
tvolsfan said:
I think that if gay marriage is legalized, polygamy should be legalized as well. I don't really see much of an argument for legalizing gay marriage and not legalizing polygamy.
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As long as everyone involved is a consenting adult, I support legalizing both.
 
#155
#155
IPorange said:
Athletes stand up for gay marriage - CNN.com

These times, they are uhchangin'.

It's becoming increasingly unacceptable to persecute based on orientation.
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It is always unacceptable to exaggerate. If disallowing same sex marriage is persecution then we better drop all qualifiers. If anyone has a "right" to marriage then everyone does.

But... marriage is not a right. It is a state issued license. All licenses come with qualifiers determined by the authority that issues them... in the case of marriage the state reps of the people.

if a state's people want to allow it then that is their "right". If they don't, that is also their "right". In neither case are homosexuals being "persecuted".
 
#156
#156
tvolsfan said:
I think that if gay marriage is legalized, polygamy should be legalized as well. I don't really see much of an argument for legalizing gay marriage and not legalizing polygamy.
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IIRC, there are like 19 recognized sexual orientations... if a state cannot qualify marriage concerning homosexuals then it cannot for the others either. If it is a right then it is a RIGHT... but it isn't a right.
 
#157
#157
sjt18 said:
It is always unacceptable to exaggerate. If disallowing same sex marriage is persecution then we better drop all qualifiers. If anyone has a "right" to marriage then everyone does.

But... marriage is not a right. It is a state issued license. All licenses come with qualifiers determined by the authority that issues them... in the case of marriage the state reps of the people.

if a state's people want to allow it then that is their "right". If they don't, that is also their "right". In neither case are homosexuals being "persecuted".
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It already is being treated as a state issue.

The thing is, in most states, same sex couples cannot be afforded spousal rights. The result is, in effect, unless you end up engaging in sex and relationships like mommy and daddy probably told you to, you end up doing things like paying more in taxes, finding yourself unable to do things like make joint financial decisions, have visitation rights, have next of kin status (which is huge), transfer of property, inheritance, etc.

As the resident libertarian talking point guy, I'm sure you'll get this: If you were gay, in most states in the US, you would have less property rights than straight citizens. Would you feel persecuted if you had less of a right to property than somebody else because of orientation?
 
#158
#158
milohimself said:
It already is being treated as a state issue.

The thing is, in most states, same sex couples cannot be afforded spousal rights. The result is, in effect, unless you end up engaging in sex and relationships like mommy and daddy probably told you to, you end up doing things like paying more in taxes, finding yourself unable to do things like make joint financial decisions, have visitation rights, have next of kin status (which is huge), transfer of property, inheritance, etc.

As the resident libertarian talking point guy, I'm sure you'll get this: If you were gay, in most states in the US, you would have less property rights than straight citizens. Would you feel persecuted if you had less of a right to property than somebody else because of orientation?
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He doesn't care. His opinion is informed by viewing homosexuality as evil, and he doesn't want it to be considered acceptable.
 
#159
#159
I am persecuted by gays continuing to try to use the media to normalize their behavior.

It was defined throughout most of American history as criminal behavior and mental illness.

It is a choice, and it is a damaging one. I do not have to accept it.
 
#161
#161
MikeHamiltonFan said:
It is a choice.
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I presume that at one point in your life you felt sexual attraction toward and sexual urges for another man, yet you chose to repress these. This would be the only claim you could make in knowing that sexual orientation is a conscious choice.
 
#162
#162
therealUT said:
I presume that at one point in your life you felt sexual attraction toward and sexual urges for another man, yet you chose to repress these. This would be the only claim you could make in knowing that sexual orientation is a conscious choice.
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No other explanation. He's a bigot.
 
#163
#163
therealUT said:
I presume that at one point in your life you felt sexual attraction toward and sexual urges for another man, yet you chose to repress these. This would be the only claim you could make in knowing that sexual orientation is a conscious choice.
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I have not suppressed urges to have sex with another man, yet I have suppressed urges to kill drivers who cut me off in traffic. It is a choice to murder. The flood of rage that released chemicals in my body came at a greater rate for me than others due to my genetic history which includes many generations of people in various parts of Scotland and Norway who regularly fought to the death. I still have a choice regarding my actions.

Trying to become a protected class minority to protect a behavior taken up by choice is not going to work.

No one is born gay.

You cannot possibly prove they are just as you cannot prove that the earth is flat.
 
#164
#164
MikeHamiltonFan said:
I have not suppressed urges to have sex with another man, yet I have suppressed urges to kill drivers who cut me off in traffic. It is a choice to murder. The flood of rage that released chemicals in my body came at a greater rate for me than others due to my genetic history which includes many generations of people in various parts of Scotland and Norway who regularly fought to the death. I still have a choice regarding my actions.

Trying to become a protected class minority to protect a behavior taken up by choice is not going to work.

No one is born gay.

You cannot possibly prove they are just as you cannot prove that the earth is flat.
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no one forces you to have hetero sex either. not sure i see your point.
 
#165
#165
MikeHamiltonFan said:
I have not suppressed urges to have sex with another man,
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So, you can positively claim that this is a lifestyle choice, although you have never had to face such a choice?

MikeHamiltonFan said:
yet I have suppressed urges to kill drivers who cut me off in traffic. It is a choice to murder.
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Correct. It is a choice to murder, as well as lie, steal, cheat, etc. Feeling attracted to someone is not a choice.
 
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#166
#166
MikeHamiltonFan said:
I have not suppressed urges to have sex with another man, yet I have suppressed urges to kill drivers who cut me off in traffic. It is a choice to murder. The flood of rage that released chemicals in my body came at a greater rate for me than others due to my genetic history which includes many generations of people in various parts of Scotland and Norway who regularly fought to the death. I still have a choice regarding my actions.

Trying to become a protected class minority to protect a behavior taken up by choice is not going to work.

No one is born gay.

You cannot possibly prove they are just as you cannot prove that the earth is flat.
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You cannot discriminate based on religion, and that is a choice (though I think discrimination by the private sector should be legal).

You can't prove they aren't born gay.

Whether it's a choice or not is beside the point. Everyone deserves freedom to live their life how they so choose.
 
#167
#167
MikeHamiltonFan said:
I have not suppressed urges to have sex with another man, yet I have suppressed urges to kill drivers who cut me off in traffic. It is a choice to murder. The flood of rage that released chemicals in my body came at a greater rate for me than others due to my genetic history which includes many generations of people in various parts of Scotland and Norway who regularly fought to the death. I still have a choice regarding my actions.

Trying to become a protected class minority to protect a behavior taken up by choice is not going to work.

No one is born gay.

You cannot possibly prove they are just as you cannot prove that the earth is flat.
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So people choose to be sociopaths/psychopaths/etc.

not seeing how this helps your argument. All chemical imbalances/brain disorders are choices?
 
#168
#168
MikeHamiltonFan said:
I am persecuted by gays continuing to try to use the media to normalize their behavior.

It was defined throughout most of American history as criminal behavior and mental illness.

It is a choice, and it is a damaging one. I do not have to accept it.
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I'd prefer not to live in your theocracy. Thanks.
 
#169
#169
MikeHamiltonFan said:
I have not suppressed urges to have sex with another man, yet I have suppressed urges to kill drivers who cut me off in traffic. It is a choice to murder. The flood of rage that released chemicals in my body came at a greater rate for me than others due to my genetic history which includes many generations of people in various parts of Scotland and Norway who regularly fought to the death. I still have a choice regarding my actions.

Trying to become a protected class minority to protect a behavior taken up by choice is not going to work.

No one is born gay.

You cannot possibly prove they are just as you cannot prove that the earth is flat.
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Not trying to be argumentative, but it cannot be scientifically proven either way (yet). Honestly, if you are not gay how would you possibly know? I am baffled that folks continue to think that people choose to be gay - I guess for the perks.
 
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#172
#172
nbakerld said:
You cannot discriminate based on religion, and that is a choice (though I think discrimination by the private sector should be legal).
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I am a pretty religious guy by the standard here... and I do not think it should be protected either. An atheist should not have to hire a Baptist nor respect the practice of their religion on his property or in his business... same for any other pov. Religion is clearly a choice for both parties in any private association. The rights of one side should not be subordinated to the other. We have the freedom to believe and practice a religion... just not on someone else's property or in their business.

You can't prove they aren't born gay.
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Correct. You cannot prove a negative. The problem with what you say is that the onus is on them or their supporters to prove it is biological. More that 50 years of research has failed to do that.

Whether it's a choice or not is beside the point. Everyone deserves freedom to live their life how they so choose.
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No one is stopping them. Some states simply do not endorse that choice.
 
#173
#173
sjt18 said:
More that 50 years of research has failed to do that.
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there is proof that homosexuality runs in families. there has been no gay gene found, but that's hardly evidence of anything. it isn't easy to find said gene. we haven't found the "alcoholic" or "bi polar" gene either and we have pretty solid evidence that those things can be genetic.
 
#175
#175
sjt, I'm not going to bother discussing anything genetic with you. It's futile. You're the one who claimed all genetic pools are degenerating, correct?

Genes aren't just hard-coded for one or a set of specific things. They interact with each other because each is a simple command that may or may not interact, supersede, or cancel out another command. Who knows?

Also, I don't think the "homosexuality isn't evil" position hinges on it being proven to be genetic.
 
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