Atlanta Braves II

[Vercingetorix]

Well, actually, his words were taken out of context and was describing what he said in jest.

So, I don't think it's that.

Also, Chipper is 40. Jason is 22.

I don't particularly care what the context was. Jones hasn't been a great player in four years; he hasn't played a full season since he was 31 (31!). At this point he's making $14 million a year to hit like Adam LaRoche and skip 40-50 games a year. The Braves are fools for building a lineup with the expectation that he'll be a significant contributor to it. All the journalistic fellation Dave O'Brien can hand out doesn't change the fact that the team would have been better off if Chipper had gone ahead and retired.

From the AJC:

Jones said he was only trying to emphasize that due to his chronic knee pain, his career beyond 2012 was uncertain. But not his status for the upcoming season.

Shut. Up.

 

[GAVol]

I'm not quite that hard on Chipper, but I agree about the retirement part. Then again, I can't blame Chipper because who wouldn't try to play if somebody was crazy enough to pay a 40 year old $15 million?

 

[Vercingetorix]

The big problem isn't that Chipper is trying to play. The problem is that the organization has apparently looked at the fact that they owe him $14m and said, "Well, okay, I guess he's the 3B again this year" and left it at that. Maybe Wren's assumption is that at any point he can turn, say, Minor and Delgado into a significant everyday player if he needs to. But right now it looks like there is no plan.

I wouldn't really have a problem with Chipper if he just kept his mouth shut. But the "Look at me, playing through pain, wow what a grizzled old tough guy I am" act gets really old when you're not helping the team.

 

[TBrown]

I dont know what they'll do but if you take a look at SS, available SS, and available SS, with one year left on their deal, it's pretty apparent Pastornicky or Simmons get this job. They won't acquire a multiyear SS because it would block Simmons, because they said they wouldn't, and because they had numerous opportunities to and did not this offseason. I think they'll roll Pastornicky out there to start, but I want Simmons from day 1.

You think they will go with Simmons over Pastornicky? Simmons is obviously the more talented of the two.. but has never played above A ball. Would be a huge jump. But, Furcal got called to the show despite never playing above AA or AAA and that worked out pretty damn well.
I personally want to ride with Simmons if we have to have a rookie SS. Kid is composed. Has a straight rocket too, hit 98 on the gun in college.

 

[TBrown]

A legitimate every day player won't fit in the budget until he hangs em up. That's the problem, IMO.

The big problem isn't that Chipper is trying to play. The problem is that the organization has apparently looked at the fact that they owe him $14m and said, "Well, okay, I guess he's the 3B again this year" and left it at that. Maybe Wren's assumption is that at any point he can turn, say, Minor and Delgado into a significant everyday player if he needs to. But right now it looks like there is no plan.

I wouldn't really have a problem with Chipper if he just kept his mouth shut. But the "Look at me, playing through pain, wow what a grizzled old tough guy I am" act gets really old when you're not helping the team.

 

[Vercingetorix]

A legitimate every day player won't fit in the budget until he hangs em up. That's the problem, IMO.

In recent years the Braves have been willing to take on a moderate amount of salary through trades. Not all-star player-type money, of course, but legitimate everyday player-type money. It's the multi-year commitment involved in free agency that they generally won't consider anymore. The Braves could easily have swung a Nate McLouth-type trade [1] this offseason if they had wanted to, to back up either 3B or LF and build a safety net into the lineup.


[1] (By which I obviously mean the player they thought they were trading for when they acquired McLouth, not the guy who actually showed up)

 

[zjcvols]

The big problem isn't that Chipper is trying to play. The problem is that the organization has apparently looked at the fact that they owe him $14m and said, "Well, okay, I guess he's the 3B again this year" and left it at that. Maybe Wren's assumption is that at any point he can turn, say, Minor and Delgado into a significant everyday player if he needs to. But right now it looks like there is no plan.

I wouldn't really have a problem with Chipper if he just kept his mouth shut. But the "Look at me, playing through pain, wow what a grizzled old tough guy I am" act gets really old when you're not helping the team.

He put pretty good stats last year.

I understand you dislike Chipper, but I don't think it's that. I just think he's stating how he feels. If he wanted attention, he would have played in New York, Chicago, or Boston.

 

[TBrown]

Understandable but I think we have a hard time matching up our pieces with other teams to get what we need. We lack middle tier prospects. None of the 4 major arms are going without something of significance and under contract in return. We don't have the $ to pay that significant piece. We dont have the middle tier prospects available to acquire a solid backup. It's boom or bust in our system right now.

In recent years the Braves have been willing to take on a moderate amount of salary through trades. Not all-star player-type money, of course, but legitimate everyday player-type money. It's the multi-year commitment involved in free agency that they generally won't consider anymore. The Braves could easily have swung a Nate McLouth-type trade [1] this offseason if they had wanted to, to back up either 3B or LF and build a safety net into the lineup.


[1] (By which I obviously mean the player they thought they were trading for when they acquired McLouth, not the guy who actually showed up)

 

[TBrown]

He put pretty good stats last year.

I understand you dislike Chipper, but I don't think it's that. I just think he's stating how he feels. If he wanted attention, he would have played in New York, Chicago, or Boston.

V doesn't dislike chipper. He dislikes how often he runs his mouth and the things he says. It's a very old, tired act. I'm 100% with him.

 

[zjcvols]

V doesn't dislike chipper. He dislikes how often he runs his mouth and the things he says. It's a very old, tired act. I'm 100% with him.

We want our athletes to be open, and when they are, we want them to shut their mouth.

To me, it's nothing new. Chipper was asked how he was feeling, told them how he was, words were taken out of context, and it's over. No harm, no foul.

Yeah, sometimes Chipper shouldn't talk. But, hey, it's his life. He's the face of the franchise. He's the captain of the team. I actually appreciate his honesty, especially talking about the collapse.

 

[Vercingetorix]

We want our athletes to be open, and when they are, we want them to shut their mouth.

To me, it's nothing new. Chipper was asked how he was feeling, told them how he was, words were taken out of context, and it's over. No harm, no foul.

Yeah, sometimes Chipper shouldn't talk. But, hey, it's his life. He's the face of the franchise. He's the captain of the team. I actually appreciate his honesty, especially talking about the collapse.

I don't particularly care about athletes being open. 95 percent of them have nothing interesting to say. I get that Chipper's been around so long that now he thinks of himself as some Yoda-like figure, and maybe when he talks about hitting he is. But generally he comes across as somebody who's overly eager to sell himself to the media in a particular way.

Yesterday's brouhaha is a great example. Chipper's talking to Dave O'Brien and some national media guys. O'Brien walks off. The national guys ask Chipper about his health; he tells them about how tough it is being old, how tomorrow might be his last day, how he might not make it through 2012. The national guys tell O'Brien about it afterwards; O'Brien asks them whether Chipper indicated that he was kidding; the national guys (who don't know Chipper as well) said it seemed straight up. Everybody runs with the story. So today Chipper has to back off and say that "he was only trying to emphasize that due to his chronic knee pain, his career beyond 2012 was uncertain. But not his status for the upcoming season."

That's not Chipper being taken out of context. That's him being excessively melodramatic while spinning this whole Wounded Warrior storyline to the national media guys.

V doesn't dislike chipper. He dislikes how often he runs his mouth and the things he says. It's a very old, tired act. I'm 100% with him.

Yep. The guy is the greatest non-Maddux Brave of my lifetime. But it is hard to ignore how he's turned the last half-decade into the Chipper Jones Is Eternally Day To Day show.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Understandable but I think we have a hard time matching up our pieces with other teams to get what we need. We lack middle tier prospects. None of the 4 major arms are going without something of significance and under contract in return. We don't have the $ to pay that significant piece. We dont have the middle tier prospects available to acquire a solid backup. It's boom or bust in our system right now.

I don't think they should be looking to acquire a "solid backup"; they should be looking for a potential starter. That would cost one of the Braves' young arms, but so what? The Braves have way more young pitching than they'll ever use; I think Wren has been way too reluctant to use those assets to improve the roster. There Is No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect.

 

[underscore]

To me, it's nothing new. Chipper was asked how he was feeling, told them how he was, words were taken out of context, and it's over. No harm, no foul.

This. He could have very well said what he said and followed with, "but I am seeing the ball and driving it better than I have in years." Yet, ppl jump all over him for a comment. Let's see how he's doing in June. If by that time has only seen the field for a handful of games and looks lost then you can go ahead and verbally bury one of the better switch-hitting players the game has ever seen.

 

[FalcoVol]

How about Chipper retires and becomes the new hitting coach.

Two birds with one stone?

 

[zjcvols]

I don't particularly care about athletes being open. 95 percent of them have nothing interesting to say. I get that Chipper's been around so long that now he thinks of himself as some Yoda-like figure, and maybe when he talks about hitting he is. But generally he comes across as somebody who's overly eager to sell himself to the media in a particular way.
Yesterday's brouhaha is a great example. Chipper's talking to Dave O'Brien and some national media guys. O'Brien walks off. The national guys ask Chipper about his health; he tells them about how tough it is being old, how tomorrow might be his last day, how he might not make it through 2012. The national guys tell O'Brien about it afterwards; O'Brien asks them whether Chipper indicated that he was kidding; the national guys (who don't know Chipper as well) said it seemed straight up. Everybody runs with the story. So today Chipper has to back off and say that "he was only trying to emphasize that due to his chronic knee pain, his career beyond 2012 was uncertain. But not his status for the upcoming season."

That's not Chipper being taken out of context. That's him being excessively melodramatic while spinning this whole Wounded Warrior storyline to the national media guys.



Yep. The guy is the greatest non-Maddux Brave of my lifetime. But it is hard to ignore how he's turned the last half-decade into the Chipper Jones Is Eternally Day To Day show.

Again, I highly doubt this. All the dude does is play baseball and hunt. You hardly ever see him in commercials. He never talks about his stats or accolades. He could have been a $150M player in NY, Boston, Chicago, LA, etc. Instead he stayed in Atlanta. He's always been a team guy.

And so what if he likes a little drama? He's 40. He's the face of the franchise. He deserves it. Again, he's being up front. We weren't there to see him answer the question. And he is eternally day to day. I wish he wasn't, but that's how it has been with his knees.

 

[zjcvols]

I don't think they should be looking to acquire a "solid backup"; they should be looking for a potential starter. That would cost one of the Braves' young arms, but so what? The Braves have way more young pitching than they'll ever use; I think Wren has been way too reluctant to use those assets to improve the roster. There Is No Such Thing As A Pitching Prospect.

Totally agree. I have no idea why we didn't try and offer Delgado and Spurill for Moustakas when we talked to the Royals about Prado/Jurrjens for Meyers.

 

[zjcvols]

On a postive note, Mike Minor is flat out dominating. They say he looks fantastic this year.

 

[Vercingetorix]

Again, I highly doubt this. All the dude does is play baseball and hunt. You hardly ever see him in commercials. He never talks about his stats or accolades. He could have been a $150M player in NY, Boston, Chicago, LA, etc. Instead he stayed in Atlanta. He's always been a team guy.

And so what if he likes a little drama? He's 40. He's the face of the franchise. He deserves it. Again, he's being up front. We weren't there to see him answer the question. And he is eternally day to day. I wish he wasn't, but that's how it has been with his knees.

It isn't just his knees. It's his knees and his back and his groin and his quadriceps and his thumb and some other stuff that I'm probably missing. Everybody gets old. Not everybody makes it the central axis of the team for five years. Even George Brett, another brittle HOF third baseman who had trouble with every part of his body, played 152 and 145 games his last two seasons.

And as far as "so what if he likes a little drama?" -- well, this is otherwise a pretty young team with a chance to be really good. Young pitching, Freeman, Heyward. McCann's old enough to be the savvy veteran now. How does it help this team to move on into Year Four of the Chipper Jones Retirement Watch?

The ideal solution would be for him to transition into some kind of a bench player/assistant hitting coach role. Let him play 80 games backing up 3B and LF; let him be a super pinch hitter. $14m is a ridiculous amount of money to pay for that, but it's a sunk cost now and clearly he's not going to retire unless he has to. The Braves need to be moving on.

 

[zjcvols]

It isn't just his knees. It's his knees and his back and his groin and his quadriceps and his thumb and some other stuff that I'm probably missing. Everybody gets old. Not everybody makes it the central axis of the team for five years. Even George Brett, another brittle HOF third baseman who had trouble with every part of his body, played 152 and 145 games his last two seasons.

And as far as "so what if he likes a little drama?" -- well, this is otherwise a pretty young team with a chance to be really good. Young pitching, Freeman, Heyward. McCann's old enough to be the savvy veteran now. How does it help this team to move on into Year Four of the Chipper Jones Retirement Watch?

The ideal solution would be for him to transition into some kind of a bench player/assistant hitting coach role. Let him play 80 games backing up 3B and LF; let him be a super pinch hitter. $14m is a ridiculous amount of money to pay for that, but it's a sunk cost now and clearly he's not going to retire unless he has to. The Braves need to be moving on.

I agree that Chipper has become brittle late in his career, but he was a 150 game player. Sadly his legs didn't hold up. Correct, he didn't just have bad knees. Whatever reason, Chip has had injury problems.

I disagree. This was going to happen with Chipper's comments or not. Every knows that most likely, this is his last year. He even said that before yesterday. These comments will die down in the next day or two with the clarification and move on. This won't hold the team back. And he is well respected in the clubhouse.

I disagree also here. Chipper, last year, put up in 125 games .275/.344/.470 I'll take that from him. And the OBP will go up with our batting coach fired. He was an all-star last year. He actually played decent down the stretch. I'll gladly take .270/.370/.450 for 120 games from him.

 

[zjcvols]

Oh, and Brett got 118 games every year at DH his last three years. I bet we'd have 140 games from Chipper if the NL had the DH.

 

[Vercingetorix]

I agree that Chipper has become brittle late in his career, but he was a 150 game player. Sadly his legs didn't hold up. Correct, he didn't just have bad knees. Whatever reason, Chip has had injury problems.

I disagree. This was going to happen with Chipper's comments or not. Every knows that most likely, this is his last year. He even said that before yesterday. These comments will die down in the next day or two with the clarification and move on. This won't hold the team back. And he is well respected in the clubhouse.

I disagree also here. Chipper, last year, put up in 125 games .275/.344/.470 I'll take that from him. And the OBP will go up with our batting coach fired. He was an all-star last year. He actually played decent down the stretch. I'll gladly take .270/.370/.450 for 120 games from him.

....plus 40 extra games of Diaz and/or Constanza getting 4 ABs a game. That drags the numbers way down. I'd trade that in a heartbeat for a full season of Prado at 3B and whatever legitimate LF they could have traded a couple of pitchers for.

I don't mean to be goring one of your sacred cows; I get the sense that you think about Chipper Jones about like I thought about Dale Murphy. I just think that having him in the lineup and out of the lineup and then back in the lineup and back out of the lineup based on whether his tits hurt on any particular day has been a net negative since he quit hitting like Chipper Jones and started hitting like Claudell Washington. And it galls me to watch him apparently reveling in it.

 

[FalcoVol]

This has been the most entertaining thread on the site today, for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Vercingetorix]

This has been the most entertaining thread on the site today, for all the wrong reasons.

I am to Chipper as Rasputin is to Erik Ainge.

Not really, but man. He sure makes it hard to like him.

 

[FalcoVol]

In a more general sense, I've wondered where the leadership for this team would come from when Chipper goes. I think Uggla can be that guy, especially with Fredi as the skipper, but before Uggla it had to be Chipper. I think McCann may be too nice and I worry about his durability.

I think it's easier to hold guys accountable when you're the most consistent player on the team.

 

[zjcvols]

....plus 40 extra games of Diaz and/or Constanza getting 4 ABs a game. That drags the numbers way down. I'd trade that in a heartbeat for a full season of Prado at 3B and whatever legitimate LF they could have traded a couple of pitchers for.

I don't mean to be goring one of your sacred cows; I get the sense that you think about Chipper Jones about like I thought about Dale Murphy. I just think that having him in the lineup and out of the lineup and then back in the lineup and back out of the lineup based on whether his tits hurt on any particular day has been a net negative since he quit hitting like Chipper Jones and started hitting like Claudell Washington. And it galls me to watch him apparently reveling in it.

Of course you would. But the organization has made the decision to let this happen. The organization gave him this deal and I do not fault him for taking the deal.

I would love that situation. But since we are cash strapped that's not going to happen. Chipper is still a productive hitter. So he is still going to get playing time.

And yes, Chipper is my all time favorite player. But I do understand his faults.