Atlanta Braves II

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#7,651
#7,651
Ankiel is responsible for the best Braves moment of the last handful of years, imo. Worth Tim Collins.

Scotty's Flat Top said:
Our only hope from that trade is perhaps getting unexpected value in return for Pastornicky in a package deal or something, hey look on the bright side we got Tim Collins from the Jays in the same deal and shipped him off to KC and got a cup of coffee with the Kyle Farnsworth and Ricky Ankiel :/

One bad trade leads to another bad trade..SMH.
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#7,654
#7,654
Scotty's Flat Top said:
Totally disagree. We took the wild card that year despite Gonzo batting .240 and his absymal .291 OBP, Yunie rounded 2010 out nice hitting .275 w/ a .340 OBP



Easy to do when your belting 30, 40, and 50 dings a year. Yunie went thru a prolonged slump (which every MLBer goes thru BTW) and it opened the opportunity for Bobby to give him the boot. In hindsight, if Pastornicky turns out to be a good everyday SS, it may be worth it.. but I really do not see that happening.
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And there are ZERO guarentees that he does that in Atlanta.
 
#7,655
#7,655
Again, you guys are just looking at the baseball side of things. You aren't looking at the fact that everyone in the room stood up and gave a standing ovation when Alex Gonzalez walked in. And it's not because Seabass is awesome.
 
#7,656
#7,656
Escobar's a grade A cancer and an average major league shortstop. It's not worth having a guy like that around. The problem wasn't dumping him, because it ought to be relatively easy to replace most of his production. The problem is the Braves' general institutional tendency to convince themselves that their talented low-level prospects are close enough to ML-ready that it's wasteful to make anything other than a short-term bandaid move in front of them.
 
#7,657
#7,657
Vercingetorix said:
Escobar's a grade A cancer and an average major league shortstop. It's not worth having a guy like that around. The problem wasn't dumping him, because it ought to be relatively easy to replace most of his production. The problem is the Braves' general institutional tendency to convince themselves that their talented low-level prospects are close enough to ML-ready that it's wasteful to make anything other than a short-term bandaid move in front of them.
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Exactly. He's not Troy Tulowitzki. He was the 4th best SS in the NL East.
 
#7,658
#7,658
zjcvols said:
And there are ZERO guarentees that he does that in Atlanta.
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Exactly. But let's not act like Gonzo is a world beater. Esco is 10x the offensive threat of A Gon. I didnt like his attitude either but the gonzo experiment was FAR from a success. Would have been better suited with Yunie.
 
#7,660
#7,660
Scotty's Flat Top said:
Exactly. But let's not act like Gonzo is a world beater. Esco is 10x the offensive threat of A Gon. I didnt like his attitude either but the gonzo experiment was FAR from a success. Would have been better suited with Yunie.
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WHere did I say Gonzo was a world beater? Yunel had to be traded. Again. HAD TO. Atlanta doesn't give up on players that easy unless they are a complete cancer. He was. It's not hard to see.
 
#7,661
#7,661
Scotty's Flat Top said:
He is easily top 10 SS in the MLB when you combine offensive and defensive abilities. Which is above average BTW
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Tulo
Reyes
Rollins
Jeter
Castro
Andrus
Cabrera
A. Ramirez
Aybar
Hardy
Peralta
Healthy Stephen Drew

Give me those 12 over Yunel.
 
#7,662
#7,662
Per Yunel, no one likes a diva but you put up with them if they produce.

It's like in Tropic Thunder when the dudes are "emerging". You can only take so much crazy drama to where baseball goes out the window.
 
#7,663
#7,663
Scotty's Flat Top said:
He is easily top 10 SS in the MLB when you combine offensive and defensive abilities. Which is above average BTW
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Eh, he's somewhere around 10-15. He's not one of the really good shortstops. He's toward the top of the mass of shortstops in the middle. He provides good but erratic defense. He's a slap hitter with no power, and like most of that kind, he helps you when the singles are falling in and he hurts you when they're not, which means if he's hitting anywhere higher than 7th, then your offense sucks.

So even apart from the attitude and the two boneheaded plays a month, that's all he is. He has no skills that are worth putting up with having him rip your clubhouse apart, because it shouldn't be hard to find somebody to provide 80 percent of what he does.

I cheered the trade as loudly as anybody because I hated seeing him in my team's uniform, but if you had told me at the time that the Braves would be willing to do absolutely nothing else about the position for two years because they liked this kid down in A ball, I might have thought differently.
 
#7,664
#7,664
_vol said:
Per Yunel, no one likes a diva but you put up with them if they produce.

It's like in Tropic Thunder when the dudes are "emerging". You can only take so much crazy drama to where baseball goes out the window.
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And it become worse during the slump.

Again, I'm siding with Bobby. JMO.
 
#7,665
#7,665
_vol said:
Per Yunel, no one likes a diva but you put up with them if they produce.

It's like in Tropic Thunder when the dudes are "emerging". You can only take so much crazy drama to where baseball goes out the window.
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You put up with a guy who hits like Hanley Ramirez. You don't put up with a guy who hits .280.-.300 with 10 homers.
 
#7,667
#7,667
All I am saying I would have preferred Yunel over Gonzo. Gonzo is horrible. Could not lay off a slider if his life depended on it.

Only 4 shortstops had a higher OBP than Yunel last year, only 6 had a higher BA, and he had more walks than any other SS. He gets on base and scores while providing a great defense. Stop acting like he is chop liver because we cut bait. Toronto has their SS while we are still beating around the bush. Is he a punk, hell yeah. Just saying we made the playoffs this year if he was one of our middle fielders. When it is all said and done he is going to be around a .300 hitter which is terrific
 
#7,670
#7,670
Too much truth here. Won't be appreciated.

Scotty's Flat Top said:
All I am saying I would have preferred Yunel over Gonzo. Gonzo is horrible. Could not lay off a slider if his life depended on it.

Only 4 shortstops had a higher OBP than Yunel last year, only 6 had a higher BA, and he had more walks than any other SS. He gets on base and scores while providing a great defense. Stop acting like he is chop liver because we cut bait. Toronto has their SS while we are still beating around the bush. Is he a punk, hell yeah. Just saying we made the playoffs this year if he was one of our middle fielders. When it is all said and done he is going to be around a .300 hitter which is terrific
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#7,671
#7,671
Scotty's Flat Top said:
All I am saying I would have preferred Yunel over Gonzo. Gonzo is horrible. Could not lay off a slider if his life depended on it.

Only 4 shortstops had a higher OBP than Yunel last year, only 6 had a higher BA, and he had more walks than any other SS. He gets on base and scores while providing a great defense. Stop acting like he is chop liver because we cut bait. Toronto has their SS while we are still beating around the bush. Is he a punk, hell yeah. Just saying we made the playoffs this year if he was one of our middle fielders. When it is all said and done he is going to be around a .300 hitter which is terrific
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If baseball were a tabletop game in which you could just take out Gonzalez's 2011 numbers and replace them with Escobar's 2011 numbers, then yeah. And I'm a guy that's been reading Bill James since 1984, so that's normally the way I think. But in this specific case, I think there's enough evidence that the personality stuff with Escobar was so poisonous that he just flat out had to go. Both for the team and him -- it's surely not a coincidence that his "slump" ended the minute he got out of Atlanta, is it? He was done here all the way around.

(Plus it would only have gotten worse in 2011 for him with Fredi. That would have been a train wreck.)
 
#7,674
#7,674
All I'm saying is that crying over Escobar is spilled milk. I've been watching baseball for 35 years and I've never seen such apparent overwhelming consensus from a baseball team -- from the guys actually on it -- that a player simply Had. To. Go.
 
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