Atlanta Braves II

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#8,901
#8,901
zjcvols said:
If we are not going to blame him for not righting the ship last year, then we have to give credit for him righting the ship this year, no?
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Baseball managers aren't football coaches. They don't sail the ship. I didn't directly blame Fredi for the collapse last year -- Brian McCann was far more to blame, for example -- and I don't directly blame or credit Fredi for any of what has happened this year. Managers aren't that important.

Here is what I do think about Fredi: he is a much worse than average on-the-field manager, and that probably costs the Braves what, two runs a week? Which is either meaningless or critical, depending on when those runs happen. But it's not that big an effect. I'd have been fine firing him right out of the gate this year because he clearly can't command the clubhouse like Bobby could, and since he sucks at on-field managing too, I don't see any reason not to try something else.

I regard managers as basically fungible, interchangeable pieces. In my 35 years of watching baseball, I've seen maybe five or six managers that I thought made a tangible, meaningful difference for their teams. The rest of them might as well be replaced by cardboard cutouts. Fredi Gonzalez ain't one of those guys.
 
#8,902
#8,902
(In no particular order: Billy Martin, Earl Weaver, Whitey Herzog, Dick Williams, Tony La Russa. Bobby Cox is a maybe. Joe Torre is a no.)
 
#8,905
#8,905
Vercingetorix said:
(In no particular order: Billy Martin, Earl Weaver, Whitey Herzog, Dick Williams, Tony La Russa. Bobby Cox is a maybe. Joe Torre is a no.)
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I agree with all except for Bobby. As much as I love the Braves, Bobby has to be one of the most overrated managers ever. I sat and watched him for years leave pitchers in way too long, or yank them when he didn't. He did some absolute stupid "coaching" decisions.
 
#8,906
#8,906
zjcvols said:
I still think they make a impact in the clubhouse, in some way.
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That's the only reason I am willing to consider Cox to be a maybe. That team kept winning for several years after ownership had checked out and there was no real reason to expect it to.

The vast majority of managers are totally dependent on the quality of their rosters. Look at the careers of Torre and Francona and Leyland. They're geniuses when they have great players; they're idiots when they don't.

And I do think the range of effect that a manager can have is heavily weighted towards the negative -- ie, a great manager can only help you a little bit, but a terrible manager can hurt you a lot. Put Earl Weaver on an 81-81 team and it'll win maybe 84 or 85 games. But put Fredi's idiot cousin on an 81-81 team and it might win only 70.
 
#8,907
#8,907
VolsFan4Ever-11 said:
I agree with all except for Bobby. As much as I love the Braves, Bobby has to be one of the most overrated managers ever. I sat and watched him for years leave pitchers in way too long, or yank them when he didn't. He did some absolute stupid "coaching" decisions.
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He was a crappy on-field manager, no doubt. But I eventually became convinced that the touchy-feely behind-the-scenes clubhouse management stuff was, in Bobby's case, real and significant, and that his personality and domination of that organization was a big component in the long run of division titles. It's worth keeping in mind that he's the guy who hired John Schuerholz, after all. He controlled everything about a team that finished first 14 years in a row. That's good enough for me.
 
#8,908
#8,908
Vercingetorix said:
He was a crappy on-field manager, no doubt. But I eventually became convinced that the touchy-feely behind-the-scenes clubhouse management stuff was, in Bobby's case, real and significant, and that his personality and domination of that organization was a big component in the long run of division titles. It's worth keeping in mind that he's the guy who hired John Schuerholz, after all. He controlled everything about a team that finished first 14 years in a row. That's good enough for me.
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This is true, he must have been really great in the clubhouse because I have never heard a former player say a bad thing about him. Just imagine what could have been if he had even been a decent on-field, in-game manager.
 
#8,911
#8,911
This team is hitting on all cylinders presently. Everything they try offensively works. Who in their right mind would squeeze with chipper at third and the pitcher batting? Amazing.
 
#8,913
#8,913
80 runs scored in game 14.

That is a pace for 925.71 runs in the season. That won't happen, but still amazing offensive production considering games 1-4.
 
#8,919
#8,919
Beachy with a 0.50 ERA presently in this third start. He has not allowed an ER since his first start in Houston on April 9, and that's the only ER he has allowed for the season.
 
#8,920
#8,920
I know this won't be all season long but right now there isn't a better team. Pitching= amazing and this run production is beyond ridiculous.
 
#8,921
#8,921
_vol said:
This team is hitting on all cylinders presently. Everything they try offensively works. Who in their right mind would squeeze with chipper at third and the pitcher batting? Amazing.
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In all fairness, it wasnt a full on squeeze :)
 
#8,922
#8,922
slh1089 said:
I know this won't be all season long but right now there isn't a better team. Pitching= amazing and this run production is beyond ridiculous.
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I'd argue that Texas is right there with them right now, and that's just Texas playing their normal baseball. Braves are playing way above their heads right now since Chipper came back in Houston. They played absolutely horrible the first four games of the year so they this team already knows what it is feels like to be on both sides of it even in this young season. To be so bad in this first four and now to be playing this well. It's inexplicable.
 
#8,924
#8,924
_vol said:
I'd argue that Texas is right there with them right now, and that's just Texas playing their normal baseball. Braves are playing way above their heads right now since Chipper came back in Houston. They played absolutely horrible the first four games of the year so they this team already knows what it is feels like to be on both sides of it even in this young season. To be so bad in this first four and now to be playing this well. It's inexplicable.
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It's baseball. There's a whole lot more random action going on this sport than any other. There are still going to be lengthy stretches this year when this team struggles to score runs.

It's great while it lasts though, isn't it?
 
#8,925
#8,925
_vol said:
Yeah, but to even consider that option and to execute it on the first pitch of the AB... you know you are living right when it works.
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I was jut giving you a hard time. I know this is going to burst of homerism but I think this team is definitely closer to how we have been playin as compared to how we started if that makes sense.
 
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