Atlanta Braves II

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#9,601
#9,601
GAVol said:
In that case, don't do math ever again.
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Just making a subtle point that they are 13-7 with Chipper and by dumping that enormous contract they could probably buy four or five more games, right?

It was a joke in that I'll take 13-7 with the bloated contract.

Honestly, it frankly doesn't really matter. Even if the braves are in the running for a prime time player we all know there are teams out there that can raise the price tag $500k/$1M each round of discussions. That braves will always lose out on this as do 80% of mlb teams.
 
#9,602
#9,602
gavol said:
your logic is completely sound. You also know that horse left the barn about 3 years ago. I don't know why they did it either . . . But just be glad he's getting out after this year instead of playing out the deal, and enjoy watching one of the five greatest third basemen ever and five atlanta braves hitters ever in his last year and appreciate the last year he's out there.
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fyp.
 
#9,604
#9,604
It doesn't matter about Chipper's 13M anyways. They are not going to go out and get somebody. They will just sign younger guys to long term deals.
 
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#9,608
#9,608
That ball is out of 90% of the parks in MLB. I'm not a fan of the Rightcenterfield dimension at Turner Field. A lot of lost HR of left handed bats out there.
 
#9,612
#9,612
The hero-worshipping is kinda cute in you young guys, but it's contemptible in the Atlanta media. Eventually you'll all have seen several decades of baseball and you'll know a giant swollen pustule of a team-killing contract when you see it, no matter whose it is. But there's no excuse for nobody in the local media not having the gonads to call Chipper out and tell him to get his ass in the lineup. For most of a decade.

What it comes down to for me is that the team would have been better off for three years in a row if Chipper had just had the stones to retire and force the team to make a significant long-term move. Chipper can still hit when he feels up to playing, but Chipper + Conrad/Diaz/Glaus/Francisco/whoever hurts the team.

This is probably exacerbated because I watch hockey, and I see what these guys who make a fortieth of what Chipper makes are willing to do for their team. And it's obvious that the only part of the "Old Battleaxe" narrative that's real is the "old" part.
 
#9,613
#9,613
Chipper + Garbage is still better than half the third basemen in the league. Is it worth $14 million? Hell no. But this is part of the deal when you hand out lifetime achievement contracts. I can't think of many superstar careers that end in anything other than a whimper.

And as far as having the "stones" to retire, I think you know the reality there.
 
#9,614
#9,614
Vercingetorix said:
The hero-worshipping is kinda cute in you young guys, but it's contemptible in the Atlanta media. Eventually you'll all have seen several decades of baseball and you'll know a giant swollen pustule of a team-killing contract when you see it, no matter whose it is. But there's no excuse for nobody in the local media not having the gonads to call Chipper out and tell him to get his ass in the lineup. For most of a decade.

What it comes down to for me is that the team would have been better off for three years in a row if Chipper had just had the stones to retire and force the team to make a significant long-term move. Chipper can still hit when he feels up to playing, but Chipper + Conrad/Diaz/Glaus/Francisco/whoever hurts the team.

This is probably exacerbated because I watch hockey, and I see what these guys who make a fortieth of what Chipper makes are willing to do for their team. And it's obvious that the only part of the "Old Battleaxe" narrative that's real is the "old" part.
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Yeah, it's a sucky contract. He didn't demand it. It was given.

It's his career. I'm not going to judge a player, especially one that's been as important as Chipper has been to this franchise, for not hanging it up earlier. Again, it's his career, and the franchise let him do it.
 
#9,615
#9,615
Game could've been different if Heyward was batting 4th instead of Uggla. I know he's been more reliable lately, but I still don't trust Uggla to be anything more than a free swinger. And I hate Francisco.

Not a fun game to watch from the stands. And lol at walking Livan with 4 straight balls. He wasn't even planning on swinging.
 
#9,616
#9,616
GAVol said:
Chipper + Garbage is still better than half the third basemen in the league. Is it worth $14 million? Hell no. But this is part of the deal when you hand out lifetime achievement contracts. I can't think of many superstar careers that end in anything other than a whimper.

And as far as having the "stones" to retire, I think you know the reality there.
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He's put a fangraphs WAR of 2.9, 2.8, and 2.1 the last three years. He's not been worthless.

Not to mention we don't know the pain Chipper has had the last 3-4 years. Dude right now has gone through two meniscus surgeries within nine months at age 40. He doesn't have the advantage of playing DH, and he plays a defensive position that's not first base.
 
#9,617
#9,617
GAVol said:
Chipper + Garbage is still better than half the third basemen in the league. Is it worth $14 million? Hell no. But this is part of the deal when you hand out lifetime achievement contracts. I can't think of many superstar careers that end in anything other than a whimper.

And as far as having the "stones" to retire, I think you know the reality there.
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I don't think it's heroism to look yourself in the face and realize that it's pathetic to be day to day literally every single day of the season. When a guy hits the hell out of the ball on Friday, and hits the hell out of the ball again on a Monday, but he couldn't play either day in between because he's "sore," and this happens over and over again for years, then something's wrong. But at what point does he become fair game? The only public person in the history of Atlanta who's called Chipper out was John Smoltz, and of course Bobby immediately jumped up and down on him until he shut up. And then for Chipper to call out Heyward last year for not playing through injuries, and not have the entire Atlanta media explode in his face....the mind boggles.

The ultimate responsibility of course lies with Wren and the Braves ownership; they should have been planning for this all along and having a better contingency plan for Chipper's inevitable hangnails than just running the 25th guy out there. If Chipper were just a great bat off the bench and part-time starter with a bad leftover contract, it'd be a totally different situation. But this team is still constructed in a way that assumes he'll start at 3B everyday. And he hasn't been able to do that since Brent Schaeffer was a promising freshman at UT.
 
#9,618
#9,618
Vercingetorix said:
I don't think it's heroism to look yourself in the face and realize that it's pathetic to be day to day literally every single day of the season. When a guy hits the hell out of the ball on Friday, and hits the hell out of the ball again on a Monday, but he couldn't play either day in between because he's "sore," and this happens over and over again for years, then something's wrong. But at what point does he become fair game? The only public person in the history of Atlanta who's called Chipper out was John Smoltz, and of course Bobby immediately jumped up and down on him until he shut up. And then for Chipper to call out Heyward last year for not playing through injuries, and not have the entire Atlanta media explode in his face....the mind boggles.

The ultimate responsibility of course lies with Wren and the Braves ownership; they should have been planning for this all along and having a better contingency plan for Chipper's inevitable hangnails than just running the 25th guy out there. If Chipper were just a great bat off the bench and part-time starter with a bad leftover contract, it'd be a totally different situation. But this team is still constructed in a way that assumes he'll start at 3B everyday. And he hasn't been able to do that since Brent Schaeffer was a promising freshman at UT.
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And that's his fault because...?
 
#9,619
#9,619
zjcvols said:
And that's his fault because...?
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It's his fault because he is, apparently, a brittle person who's at risk of hurting himself every time he gets out of bed in the morning and who has absolutely no threshold of playing through pain.

Really, the fact that he has always still hit when he's been in there is the most damning thing of all. The guy hasn't been able to stay in the lineup consistently for ten years. When's the last time you heard anybody talking about how Chipper's been trying to give it a go but he clearly can't do it? Ever?
 
#9,620
#9,620
Vercingetorix said:
It's his fault because he is, apparently, a brittle person who's at risk of hurting himself every time he gets out of bed in the morning and who has absolutely no threshold of playing through pain.

Really, the fact that he has always still hit when he's been in there is the most damning thing of all. The guy hasn't been able to stay in the lineup consistently for ten years. When's the last time you heard anybody talking about how Chipper's been trying to give it a go but he clearly can't do it? Ever?
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So wait just a second. Because the BRAVES gave him a bad contract, and the BRAVES failed to realize that he is an injury risk, and the BRAVES have not come up with a good backup plan for Chipper, it's all at his feet?

And last year, at 39, he played almost two months with a meniscus tear. I'd say that's pretty gutsy.
 
#9,621
#9,621
Vercingetorix said:
It's his fault because he is, apparently, a brittle person who's at risk of hurting himself every time he gets out of bed in the morning and who has absolutely no threshold of playing through pain.

Really, the fact that he has always still hit when he's been in there is the most damning thing of all. The guy hasn't been able to stay in the lineup consistently for ten years. When's the last time you heard anybody talking about how Chipper's been trying to give it a go but he clearly can't do it? Ever?
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Yeah, he probably should have played in a few more games. Almost all baseball hitters can say that. It's also his body and we don't know what kind of pain he has been.

I'll remember Chipper as a great third basemen who helped lead Atlanta to one of the greatest runs of all time. You can choose to remember him as a baby and constantly ***** how he's not in the lineup even though he's 40 years old and has had about 7 major leg surgeries instead of appreciating the last days of one of the greatest hitters of our generation.
 
#9,622
#9,622
I believe this argument happens once a week. I was thinking tonight once I got settled in my seat, that it would be nice to have a Chipper schedule along with the regular schedule. That way we know if we will get to see him or not.
 
#9,623
#9,623
_vol said:
Honestly, it frankly doesn't really matter. Even if the braves are in the running for a prime time player we all know there are teams out there that can raise the price tag $500k/$1M each round of discussions. That braves will always lose out on this as do 80% of mlb teams.
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Chipper is eating something like 17 percent of the payroll for what projects to be about 90 games in the field and 15 pinch hit appearances. It's almost as stupid as when Smoltz was eating ~20 percent of the payroll to pitch 60 innings a year. You wouldn't have had to get into a bidding war for a top-shelf free agent to redeploy that money into a merely decent 3B or LF that would be as good as the average of Chipper/Diaz/Francisco, with dramatically less drama and more stability. Although I guess Chipper wouldn't have had a chance to get as many free cowboy hats from other teams that way.


_vol said:
As vercingwtfbbq would tell ya, $13M can't buy a timely hit from a bum.
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Nothing like a username callout from a guy with the most nondescript handle on the board. Your dog's name would have been more interesting.
 
#9,624
#9,624
LOL at this:

Last five years for two players:

A) .303/.403/.507 125 games per year

B) .236/.304/.388 101 games per year

Player A is Chipper Jones. Player B is Dale Murphy.

Now...which player looks like he should have retired earlier?
 
#9,625
#9,625
zjcvols said:
Yeah, he probably should have played in a few more games. Almost all baseball hitters can say that. It's also his body and we don't know what kind of pain he has been.
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If I had even one time in recent years seen Chipper go through a long protracted period where he tried to play through an injury, struggle to hit .200, and eventually have to give up and go on the DL, I'd probably look at him totally differently. But that's not what he does. Apparently he just shows up to the ballpark, takes BP, and if he's not feeling it, he doesn't play. And then he sees the next night. And then maybe he's feeling better the next night, and he's back in the lineup, and boom, he gets three hits and Joe Simpson explodes on the broadcast console. Why didn't he try to go the night before when maybe he'd only get one hit? Why can't he play through anything?

I'll remember Chipper as a great third basemen who helped lead Atlanta to one of the greatest runs of all time. You can choose to remember him as a baby and constantly ***** how he's not in the lineup even though he's 40 years old and has had about 7 major leg surgeries instead of appreciating the last days of one of the greatest hitters of our generation.
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He wasn't consistently in the lineup when he was 32, or 33, or 34, or 35, or 36, or 37, or 38, or 39, or now that he's 40. I don't get how at some point that doesn't start to define him. He's a great player -- the best Braves position player of my lifetime -- but he's been done for awhile. It's past time to move on.

See, it's not either/or, and when it's not your childhood hero, you won't see it that way either. You see the whole player. It's been all business with me since August 3, 1990. It'll be that way with you soon.
 
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