Bible Topic Thread (merged)

OE I agree with you on that. I think the whoel rapture movement is definitely a little skewed and a big money maker for quite a few as well.
 
It is important to go simply by what the Word of God says. Phrases like "I think" or "In my opinion" are dangerous when it comes to the commandments of God.

I first want to touch on the topic of baptism being a work, as was brought up earlier. In the same argument, can you deny that faith is a work?
1 Thessalonians 1:3 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
Galatians 5:6 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
By using the "baptism is a work" logic we can conclude that faith is a work and is therefore not essential to salvation. Obviously that is not true.
What is true is that God requires works of obedience to Him.
James 2:14-26 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

and Titus 2:11-12 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
Hebrews 5:8-9 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Luke 17:10 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”
Works are required to have a living faith (See above James 2:14-26 passage)
Luke 17:10 (see above) tells us what Paul means in Ephesians 2:8-9. Without God's grace our works of obedience mean nothing. However, as per Hebrews 5:8-9 and Titus 2:11-12 (again, see above) we see that God's grace doesn't mean anything to us unless we obey Him. Baptism is a work of obedience, just as faith, confessing, repentence and living a Christian life are.

Sorry about the length of this one. I just want to make sure I get the point across and it takes a lot of scripture to do so. What can I say? I told you I love talking about it. :yes:

I'll touch on another topic shortly.
 
It is important to go simply by what the Word of God says. Phrases like "I think" or "In my opinion" are dangerous when it comes to the commandments of God.

I first want to touch on the topic of baptism being a work, as was brought up earlier. In the same argument, can you deny that faith is a work?
1 Thessalonians 1:3 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
Galatians 5:6 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
By using the "baptism is a work" logic we can conclude that faith is a work and is therefore not essential to salvation. Obviously that is not true.
What is true is that God requires works of obedience to Him.
James 2:14-26 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
and Titus 2:11-12 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
Hebrews 5:8-9 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Luke 17:10 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”
Works are required to have a living faith (See above James 2:14-26 passage)
Luke 17:10 (see above) tells us what Paul means in Ephesians 2:8-9. Without God's grace our works of obedience mean nothing. However, as per Hebrews 5:8-9 and Titus 2:11-12 (again, see above) we see that God's grace doesn't mean anything to us unless we obey Him. Baptism is a work of obedience, just as faith, confessing, repentence and living a Christian life are.

Sorry about the length of this one. I just want to make sure I get the point across and it takes a lot of scripture to do so. What can I say? I told you I love talking about it. :yes:

I'll touch on another topic shortly.


So, you believe you are an end all to scripture?

:thumbsup:
 
The pretribulation rapture view requires the duplication of events that a posttribulation rapture position simplifies into one event. (The first of the two references given beside each event below is generally believed to occur before the 70th week of Daniel by pretribulationists. The second reference is generally regarded as occurring at a posttribulation time by both sides.) The same event is described in both passages, so pretribulationists must explain this duplication by saying that each of these events occur twice (a demonstration of the weakness of their position when contrasted with the posttribulation rapture position, which does not require such dubious duplications).
EventPretribulation RapturePosttribulation RaptureBible ReferenceChrist coming in the cloudstwiceonce#1Thes 4.17 #Matt 24.30
Angelic involvement at His comingtwiceonce#1Thes 4.16 #Matt 24.31
Resurrection of believersTwice, with the second one called the "first resurrection"once#1Cor 15.52 #Rev 20.4-5
Last trumpet soundstwiceonce#1Cor 15.52 #Rev 11.15
Saints are rewarded.twiceonce#Rev 22.12 #Rev 11.18
Believers are told to expectantly await His coming.twiceonce#Titus 2.13 #Matt 24.42
Christ's advent to innitiate the day of the Lord is illustrated as being like the coming of a thief.twice 1once#1Thes 5.2 #Rev 16.15
The sun is darkened, the moon is turned to blood (or darkened), the stars fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven are shaken (wonders in the sky or stars lose their brightness).three times 1, 2once#Joel 2.30-31
#Joel 3.14-16
#Rev 6.12 #Matt 24.29
 
Matthew 5:17 - 19* 17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ( Jesus says all Bible law in detail is to be obeyed until heaven passes away {forever})

Luke 16:17 * 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. (Jesus says Bible Law is forever)
Which brings up a point I was making on here a while back. Modern Christianity, while strictly adhering to certain parts of the law (homosexuality, the tithe, and most of the commandments for example), totally ignore other parts like the restrictions on eating certain foods, the ban on wearing mixed fabrics, or the observance of the Sabbath day, which is the seventh day of the week and not the first. If all of the law is still in force, then why are these things no longer considered sin.
John 10:35 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; (Jesus says that all scripture is without error)

2 Timothy 3:16 16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (All scripture is God inspired)

Revelation 22:18 - 19* 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book. (Must believe Revelations as is)

For what it is worth, of course.....
That brings up the question of what exactly is considered "all Scripture". None of the books of the New Testament had even been written when Jesus spoke those words. Also, what about the other texts which were omitted from the official canon? The canon was decided in the mid fourth century, long after these words were written. How are we to know which texts Jesus was referring to when he said "all Scripture"? It is entirely possibly, and highly probable imo, that those who chose what we now consider the Bible simply kept the texts which supported their beliefs and threw out those which contradicted them, like the so called gnostic texts.

What about the Book of Mormon?

What about the Koran?

Should we consider these to be Scripture also?
 
If you are referencing a number, 7 years........

If Jesus returns at the end of tribulation, 7 years after it begins, then why does the Bible say that no one knows when he will return?
Matthew 24:36-42
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
 
Earlier it was said that if you believe baptism is a component for salvation then you believe baptism saves you, not Jesus. That couldn't be further from the truth.

If baptism refers to the washing away of sin, can you be saved without doing it? Salvation means " to save". Spiritual salvation is being saved from sin/death. One cannot claim to be saved if he still has not been washed of his sin, which, biblically only takes place at...any guesses? Baptism.
Acts 2:38 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 22:16 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Jesus does save us. There's no arguing that. The argument is the POINT at which Jesus saves us, right? Some believe that point was before the foundation of the world, before anyone was ever made. Some believe that point is when you call upon the name of the Lord with your mouth. Some believe you won't be saved at all until death and the scales of your life are balanced. The Bible, however, says that it takes place the moment you die to self and rise to walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:4 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

That moment is at baptism.

I Peter 3:21 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Baptism is the transition moment. What other such transition moment is described in the Bible? I am still waiting for an example of someone praying Jesus into their heart.

Next up, Spiritual Baptism vs. Water Baptism.
 
I Peter 3:21 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter is saying that the physical baptism, the removal of the filth of the flesh, is not what saves us. Baptism, the answer of a good conscience toward God, is what saves us.
 
Note- I love you guys and gals..........

Please to not take me the wrong way when I argue/debate.

I was looking at some earlier posts and I could see where some of them could be very harsh if taken the wrong way.

:)
 
The tribulation is clearly stated, it does not mean at the end of the 7th year that Jesus will return.

Will the end of tribulation not be the end of the world as we know it?

Sorry if I am being a bother, but I like I said, i just want to know what you think. This will probably be my last post tonight, my laptop battery is about dead.
 
I assume you are referring to Colossians 2:11-12, which states this:
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[a] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Nowhere in this scripture does it indicate that baptism is a circumcision of the flesh. Circumcision of the flesh is just that, circumcision. Baptism here is specifically called the Circumcision of Christ, not a physical act at all, but a circumcision "made without hands", which happens at baptism.
 

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