Bible Topic Thread (merged)

#701
#701
therealUT said:
Common sense dictates the following assumptions (I use common sense to argue these points, because using a book that most on here do not believe to be sacred nor inspired would be pointless):
Unpurified souls cannot get in to heaven
Humans, even devout Christians, still die as sinners
Even if that purification takes but a fleeting microsecond, it still takes place between life on earth and life in heaven
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Our bodies (sinful in the flesh) will be transformed. The old passes away. This in no way implies that a sinner without salvation has a chance AFTER death to 'make things right'. There is no elaborate 'purification' process for those who are in Christ.
 
#702
#702
Using the common sense approach. Wouldn't the Apostles, at least Peter as being the first pope as Catholics believe, spend much time writing about such an imporatant topic?

And why even have Christ die on the cross if we can get to Heaven by NOT HEARING HIS NAME?
 
#703
#703

Galatians 2:21

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes from the law, then Christ died in vain.


If obeying the worlds laws and being a good person was all it took to achieve to be righteousness enough to spend eternity in heaven, then Christ didn't have to come and die for our sins. If He didn't go to the cross for anyone else, He went for you.
 
#705
#705
OrangeEmpire said:
Galatians 2:21

I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes from the law, then Christ died in vain.


If obeying the worlds laws and being a good person was all it took to achieve to be righteousness enough to spend eternity in heaven, then Christ didn't have to come and die for our sins. If He didn't go to the cross for anyone else, He went for you.
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It is not in any way setting aside the grace of God, for God to accept the following people into his kingdom:
Who seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience.
​
I am not for letting satanists, or those bent on denouncing God's ways into heaven. This is about God being just and merciful, and granting his grace to those who seek Him and try in their acts to do his will.
 
#706
#706
CSpindizzy said:
Read Luke 16 starting with verse 19. There is no way to cross....
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If anything, the parable actually points towards allowing non-Christians in to heaven. No where in that parable does it say anything about Lazarus having faith in God, let alone Christ. Yet, Lazarus ends up with Abraham, and the rich man, who in no way acted to do the will of God, ended up in hell.
 
#707
#707
therealUT said:
It is not in any way setting aside the grace of God, for God to accept the following people into his kingdom:
Who seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience.​
I am not for letting satanists, or those bent on denouncing God's ways into heaven. This is about God being just and merciful, and granting his grace to those who seek Him and try in their acts to do his will.
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Now you got me thinking.........you bum!

:salute:

I have a text book answer........but those get old.
 
#708
#708
therealUT said:
It is not in any way setting aside the grace of God, for God to accept the following people into his kingdom:
Who seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience.
​
I am not for letting satanists, or those bent on denouncing God's ways into heaven. This is about God being just and merciful, and granting his grace to those who seek Him and try in their acts to do his will.
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That makes me think as well but my only question would be this: I truely believe if one is seeking to find the true God then Jesus will reveal himself to that person or send someone in their life to speak the name of Jesus.

Doesn't it seem God would be big enough to reveal himself to someone truely seeking Him as opposed to just put them in purgatory?
 
#709
#709
trut- It probably seems to you like you are being attacked but I again hope I don't make you feel that way. I would never be arrogant enough to claim I have all the answers or understand the Bible and I am 100% correct or you are 100% wrong. I've really enjoyed learning about catholism, I won't be converting, but do have a better grasp of what you believe.
 
#710
#710
JZVOL said:
That makes me think as well but my only question would be this: I truely believe if one is seeking to find the true God then Jesus will reveal himself to that person or send someone in their life to speak the name of Jesus.

Doesn't it seem God would be big enough to reveal himself to someone truely seeking Him as opposed to just put them in purgatory?
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I am sure there were a ton of Christians willing to go hike through the Himalayas, in order to spread the word of God to some Tibetan Sherpas, circa 900 A.D.

Or, how about those who have lived under governments which institute state religions, under the threat of the penalty of death. I am sure there are many who long to be free of those nations, who never will or have heard the name of Jesus.

You live a very accomodating life if you believe that those who are selfless and live in third world countries could discover the words of Christ if they wanted to. Most of the people who make it away from their villages in third world countries, let alone out of the country, are usually not the poorest of the poor. Granted, many are poor, however, they are filled with ambition and, many times, great talent.

The opportunities that America offers do not exist in such abundance in sub-saharan Africa, northern India, Tibet, western China, etc.
 
#711
#711
I do see your point especially about countries where the people live in persecution but don't most of those groups you discussed worship false idols (India,Tibet or China?
 
#712
#712
If they have never received the word of God, and those idols do not lead them to act in defiance of the word of God, then how are they to know these idols are false and/or evil?

If a man worships the sun, because nobody has ever revealed Yahweh or Christ to him, yet he behaves in a truly Christian manner, then would God condemn this man to eternal suffering and damnation?
 
#713
#713
therealUT said:
If they have never received the word of God, and those idols do not lead them to act in defiance of the word of God, then how are they to know these idols are false and/or evil?

If a man worships the sun, because nobody has ever revealed Yahweh or Christ to him, yet he behaves in a truly Christian manner, then would God condemn this man to eternal suffering and damnation?
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IMO yes. At minimum wouldn't that person wonder about a higher being who created that sun, than worshiping the sun?
 
#714
#714
JZVOL said:
IMO yes. At minimum wouldn't that person wonder about a higher being who created that sun, than worshiping the sun?
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Of course that person would wonder. There is a huge gap between wondering and leaving a religion, though. Wonderment should lead to a search. However, if that search reveals nothing more concrete, short of God actually shouting down from the heavens for a sizeable portion of today's population, much less 1,000 years ago, then even the best humans are not going to abandon that religion, mythology, etc. if they are not experiencing a conflict of conscience (i.e. they are still propelled to do good works and be more than decent human beings by their belief system.)
 
#715
#715
Then if that person began to wonder and seek God I believe God will reveal Himself in some way to that person

Deut. 4:29 "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul."
 
#716
#716
therealUT said:
If anything, the parable actually points towards allowing non-Christians in to heaven. No where in that parable does it say anything about Lazarus having faith in God, let alone Christ. Yet, Lazarus ends up with Abraham, and the rich man, who in no way acted to do the will of God, ended up in hell.
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He was with Abraham. By deduction you can easily conclude that just as Abraham was in God's graces so was Lazarus. Lazarus was there at the beginning of the parable. It also does not say the rich man did not do the will of God. It basically shows that in death, there is a definitive answer of no movement between the 'good' side of the chasm and the 'bad' side of the chasm. Basically those in God's graces are protected and those not have no other place to go. When these died, their fate was sealed by their actions while alive. That is why the rich man asked to send someone to those family members still alive. He knew they only had life to make the decision to prevent being sent to the side of torment.
 
#717
#717
Explain all of the Gentiles who were cut off before Christ. How would Melchizidek have heard and become such a high priest even as he is considered a Gentile? There was no proselytizing back then but yet he still worshipped God. Did God not wipe out nations of unbelievers? What of those at the time of the Flood or Sodom and Gomorrah?
 
#718
#718
CSpindizzy said:
Explain all of the Gentiles who were cut off before Christ. How would Melchizidek have heard and become such a high priest even as he is considered a Gentile? There was no proselytizing back then but yet he still worshipped God. Did God not wipe out nations of unbelievers? What of those at the time of the Flood or Sodom and Gomorrah?
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God did not wipe out these people for lack of belief.

Further, in the Genesis story, God clearly states to Abraham, that if he finds just 10 innocent people in Sodom, then he will spare the rest of the city (and, thus, its wicked population). So, the same God who is going to spare the earthly destruction of a town full of wickedness, for the sake of 10 innocent people, is then going to condemn to eternal damnation someone who lives a good life but does not believe in God?
 
#719
#719
God has NEVER left eternal life to just living a "good life". Please show me where in the Bible the "good life" to get you to Heaven is. Christ clearly says the ONLY way to the Father is through Him. Do you disagree with Christ's own words? ONLY is a very definitive word. Works alone do not get you to Heaven.
 
#720
#720
CSpindizzy said:
God has NEVER left eternal life to just living a "good life". Please show me where in the Bible the "good life" to get you to Heaven is. Christ clearly says the ONLY way to the Father is through Him. Do you disagree with Christ's own words? ONLY is a very definitive word. Works alone do not get you to Heaven.
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Since Christ is the judge, then, yes, people only get to Heaven through him. But, please, do not even try to argue this "Christ's own words" line of BS when you are the one who tries to downplay John 21.

I am just going to simply state that if God condemns to hell all those who have never heard of Jesus, then He certainly is a cruel and unjust God.
 
#721
#721
trut, I have seen you say many times "I will take Jesus' word" well please quote where Jesus said that "good" people will enter the pearly gates and I will see your point. Please don't use the arguement not everything He said was written down because that would be a large topic to omit.
 
#722
#722
CSpindizzy said:
God has NEVER left eternal life to just living a "good life". Please show me where in the Bible the "good life" to get you to Heaven is. Christ clearly says the ONLY way to the Father is through Him. Do you disagree with Christ's own words? ONLY is a very definitive word. Works alone do not get you to Heaven.
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However, if you want a place in the Bible where those who have little, if any, faith in God will make it into Heaven, just look at the Beatitudes.
 
#723
#723
JZVOL said:
trut, I have seen you say many times "I will take Jesus' word" well please quote where Jesus said that "good" people will enter the pearly gates and I will see your point. Please don't use the arguement not everything He said was written down because that would be a large topic to omit.
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The Beatitudes. He outlines them during his Sermon on the Mount...Matthew.
 
#725
#725
therealUT said:
However, if you want a place in the Bible where those who have little, if any, faith in God will make it into Heaven, just look at the Beatitudes.
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Where does it say blessed are the ones with no faith in God because they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
 
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