Bible Topic Thread (merged)

Geez, this is just getting silly now. I said it was possible and not all that unreasonable to conclude that just because [B]something is rare, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.[/B] After all, we are all here by one means or another.

That's not the point. You look down on the simpletons who believe in a Creator but make just as "wild" a claim that can't be backed up.

Interesting statement considering the conversation.

So just because there is a rare chance of intelligent design it's not that unreasonable to conclude it happened.
 
That's not the point. You look down on the simpletons who believe in a Creator but make just as "wild" a claim that can't be backed up.

Mine is just as "wild"? Who's the one talking about supernatural causes? I am not interjecting anything supernatural into any cause of this or that....just because at present we don't know. You guys are. I am simply saying given the size of the universe and large numbers, there could be plenty of life elsewhere, even if the cances of it happening are one in a billion. And who said anything about "simpletons"? Sombody else coined the phrase on here "simple supernatural explanation", whatever that is supposed to mean.

So just because there is a rare chance of intelligent design it's not that unreasonable to conclude it happened.

I wouldn't even say it is rare given the evidence against it. But nevertheless, anything is possible I guess.
 
It is. And I don't have to explain why.
don't be dense. The word obvious clearly implies that you don't have to explain because the answer is so plainly visible. Answers are to be provided by those with much less plainly visible solutions.
 
I wouldn't even say it is rare given the evidence against it. But nevertheless, anything is possible I guess.

If I have the time, which I don't right now, I could could pull hundreds of quotes from some of the smartest people n the world that show evidence for intelligent design.

So what does that prove?
 
I've made this comment already but just to clarify my view.

Since atheism (as you've espoused it) makes a specific belief that there is no "God" - it is a belief system that is not supported by direct proof to the contrary. The lack of proof that there is a God is not the same as proof there is not. As a result, the above argument is tautological since it is based on your beginning belief system that since there is no God, not believing in one should be a natural state. The underlying "fact" of the argument is not a fact at all but a belief that has not been empirically verified.

Ten "big word" bonus points!!!!:good!:
 
Nothing. I just don't think the word itself is needed.

So don't use it then but realize that being dogmatic about that isn't going to ever stop others from using the word appropriately.


rjd970 said:
Of course you do, because that dogma doesn't agree with yours. Jesus rising from the dead is just about as reasonable to believe as that of Muhammed rising to heaven on a winged horse.

It would be no surprise that anyone subscribing to the dogma of secular socialism would think thusly.

So then you believe in al-Buraq??

Is it reasonable then to believe that the One will turn the other cheek and the other will cut your head off if you deny his claims??

Sort of takes the equal sign out of your equation to my way of thinking but to each his own.



rjd970 said:
To say the least. Dictionary.com

Well the important but mostly overlooked difference between religion and divine enlightenment is that religion is man's attempt to find God (or spiritual peace or whatever). Literally the word "religion" comes from "re", to do again, and "allegiance", to be aligned with or be loyal to.




rjd970 said:
It wasn't so much there socialist religion as it was unfounded beleifs in political, social, and racial idealouges. The "socialist religion", or whatever, was a sympton, not the cause of their idealouges.

Instead of; "not the cause of their idealouges" you mean; "not because of their ideologies", right??
(and idealogue is the correct spelling, even if spellcheck says not, meaning "theorist", or impractical idealist or an often blindly partisan advocate or adherent of a particular ideology)

Does it make sense to think that things are unfair in the world because of the greed of mankind and then to say that if political and economic power were placed in the hands of few or in some cases just one dictator, that the underlying problem would disappear???

On the contrary, we have at the very least one century of failure after failure of this way of thinking as evidence that the theory should be smashed to bits and let to die in some shallow grave of history.

An besides that the whole idea is based on a big lie, it is formulated by those who already have the most.

As Lenin said; "religion is the opiate of the masses" then likewise; "socialism is the (religion and) opiate of the ignorant."
 
As Lenin said; "religion is the opiate of the masses" then likewise; "socialism is the (religion and) opiate of the ignorant."

That absolutely cuts to the heart of the argument of most political and religous arguments for me gs.

People who say we have learned nothing in the last 2000 years, yet still prop humanist agendas in the form of big government. Makes no sense to me at all.

We do away with Judeo-Christian moral absolutes on every level, and then tell the masses that justice and equality are important.....how can that be if there are no absolutes?

Taking my tax money and giving it to someone else requires the same moral judgement that Christians are expected to relinquish.
 
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I thought creationism and intelligent design were not synonymous, but it seems like in this thread they are treated as such. Couldn't one believe in creationism and not necessarily intelligent design (but rather natural processes like evolution shaping life going forward?) Or are there different "levels" of intelligent design? Could evolution itself be a mechanism put in place by intelligent design?

I am asking questions, not picking a fight. I swear. Just interested in people's thoughts.
 
One thing about GS. He convinces me that the art of storytelling is not dead.

OK, story time, this one is true.

After the breakup of the Soviet Union a certain Soviet general known as the "general of death" (because he had the annoying habit of putting a gun to people's heads and pulling the trigger, he especially enjoyed dispatching in such manner anyone who confessed to be a Christian), was involved in a helicopter crash in Siberia in which all on board were killed except for him and he was completely unharmed.

He said he exclaimed; "Bozha moi!!" ("my God," or literally "God my") and began to believe in God in that moment.

Eventually he networked with believers and using his high position, made it possible for every man in the Russian military to receive a Bible.

Those Bibles were printed in Russia by Tennesseans and passed out by them to all in the military who would receive and also to many other state run organizations such a orphanages etc. They were inexpensive paper backs done in camo with the flags of Russia and the USA crossed on the cover.

I first met the man most responsible for getting all that together and he told his life story and when he was first converted and called himself, he was illiterate and held the lowest of positions but had eventually, after elementary school as a grown man, high school, college and seminary, (he said he was elated when he went back to school that he started in the third grade, thinking since he had dropped out of the second grade he would have to start there), had met with several presidents in the White House, leaders in the Kremlin and other heads of state in various countries.

He spoke before about forty people at a meeting of a group of businessmen of an organization that was founded by an Armenian Christian. The Armenians had a prophet of the twentieth century who foretold for many years the great genocide visited on those people by the Turks and when he finally said the time is near, many many Armenian Christians fled to other parts of the world just before the carnage began. My own sect of Christians are not protestants, having never been a part of the Catholic church and trace their brand of faith back to the days Jesus ministered here on Earth and attribute the Armenian Church as playing a big part of that history.

He began by saying; "I probably make more money than all of you put together but also I probably live on less than any of you in this room, I give most of it away."

He began by telling of the preceding day when he bought the contents of a wrecked semi which was 30 gallon drums of koolaide. He had bid a dime per drum and got the merchandise but didn't make any money, he donated it to an orphanage. Ironically his most lucrative and steady income came from a business that was a partnership between a Buddhist and a Mormon.

Their business produced a good deal of waste that cost them to dispose of but the guy speaking had a market for that waste and so they gave it to him for free, just to get rid of it and he in turn sold it at a good price and his only cost was transportation.

When the people printing the Bibles were hard at work at their presses one day, in a building also occupied by the KGB (or the org that had previously been the KGB) the double doors separating the two sections of the building were thrown open and several men with thirty round clips stepped into the room, chambered rounds and leveled their weapons at the Bible printers.

They stopped the presses and looked at those men and said that after a moment a look of confusion came over the angry faces of the Russian men and a moment later they lowered their weapons and sheepishly turned and left the room, closing the doors behind them. Not a word was said and the printers continued their work and the presses continued to turn out more Russian language Bibles.

Divine intervention or no??

Even back before that a member of my own group told of passing out Russian Bibles when it was illegal and indeed could result in the death penalty if caught, and he and a fellow worker offered Bibles to some Russian soldiers who were seated on the back of one of those large (deuce and a half) military trucks. One soldier replied he would take one and when one of the men sat his box of Bibles down at the back of the truck and reached in for a book, another soldier raised his rifle and was about to come down with the butt of the stock into the back of the mans head which would have caused a severe injury if not death.

The other man said at that moment his eyes were opened and he saw an angel reach out an put his hand on the head of the soldier and that soldier lowered his rifle and sat back down as he had been before.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
 
That absolutely cuts to the heart of the argument of most political and religous arguments for me gs.

People who say we have learned nothing in the last 2000 years, yet still prop humanist agendas in the form of big government. Makes no sense to me at all.

We do away with Judeo-Christian moral absolutes on every level, and then tell the masses that justice and equality are important.....how can that be if there are no absolutes?

Taking my tax money and giving it to someone else requires the same moral judgement that Christians are expected to relinquish.

Cool, and empty netter.:good!:

I get an assist right???:)
 
I thought creationism and intelligent design were not synonymous, but it seems like in this thread they are treated as such. Couldn't one believe in creationism and not necessarily intelligent design (but rather natural processes like evolution shaping life going forward?) Or are there different "levels" of intelligent design? Could evolution itself be a mechanism put in place by intelligent design?

I am asking questions, not picking a fight. I swear. Just interested in people's thoughts.

I'm a lover not a fighter anyway so I'll attempt to address that question by quoting someone else.


It seems to me we are sort of talking about the science of religion, so let me quote Frank Zappa.


"The scientists all say that hydrogen is the basic building block of the universe but they are all wrong, stupidity is the basic building block of the universe."
:unsure:
 
At the heart of the matter...I still don't see anything intelligent about describing how something can be created out of nothing. No matter how intellectually superior that argument may appear to others.

Yes but does your thesis stand up to critical analysis?? After all a bird can fly but and fly can't bird!!
 
I am simply saying given the size of the universe and large numbers, there could be plenty of life elsewhere, even if the cances of it happening are one in a billion.
So, are you implying that the laws of science and nature would not apply to the undiscovered universe???
 
So, are you implying that the laws of science and nature would not apply to the undiscovered universe???

I don't understand your question. Math is math, no matter where you are in the universe. If the probability of something happening is 1 in 1 Billion, and you have a sample set of 100 Billion, probability states on average you will see that something happen 100 times.

I don't know about nature, it could be possible life would exist elsewhere in a different form, or in a form that isn't hydrocarbon based.
 
I would like to commend you guys on keeping the post well thought and not reverting to personal shots. (unless I missed something)

If only all debates could go that way...

Hold on, it's almost beer thirty and I'm about to have a shot, and I guess it's a personal shot since I'm not planning on sharing it with anyone else.

Personally I think debates would be a lot more fun if there were more rebates and updates and outtakes.

I mean that's my intake and I haven't even had a shot yet and I'm very upset about a couple of things too, one, my coffee maker is broke and two, there's no apparent way to get out of wrestling with that stupid Christmas tree tonight. Why do they need lights?? That has never made sense to me!

OK, carry on, I just needed someone to vent at for a moment!!
 
I don't understand your question. Math is math, no matter where you are in the universe. If the probability of something happening is 1 in 1 Billion, and you have a sample set of 100 Billion, probability states on average you will see that something happen 100 times.

I don't know about nature, it could be possible life would exist elsewhere in a different form, or in a form that isn't hydrocarbon based.
How large do you really think the range of probabilities actually is for something that someone places as a 1 in a Billion chance?
 
I don't understand your question. Math is math, no matter where you are in the universe. If the probability of something happening is 1 in 1 Billion, and you have a sample set of 100 Billion, probability states on average you will see that something happen 100 times.

I don't know about nature, it could be possible life would exist elsewhere in a different form, or in a form that isn't hydrocarbon based.
You are correct. Math is math and natural law applies to all of nature (not just nature here on Earth or in our solar system). Therefore, regardless of your dodge in which you jump to the "the universe could contain life elsewhere" and still does not get rid of the inconvenient fact that according to the laws of nature something cannot ever come from nothing.
 
when someone places a likelihood at 1 in 1 billion, what do you think the range of likelihoods really is?

All things being equal, I would say 1 in 1 Billion. But I suspect when probabilities get that low, the range, if there is any, is just noise. In the absence of huge sample sets I see where it could be an issue. But the universe is a pretty big place, with lots of stars, planets, galaxies, and unknowns. The point is, no matter the probability, the incomprehensible size of the universe almost dictates this has happened before (life arising) at some time (past present and future) and fashion, probably more than once.

That is the only point I am making. I am not claiming it is fact, just that it sounds reasonable.
 
All things being equal, I would say 1 in 1 Billion. But I suspect when probabilities get that low, the range, if there is any, is just noise. In the absence of huge sample sets I see where it could be an issue. But the universe is a pretty big place, with lots of stars, planets, galaxies, and unknowns. The point is, no matter the probability, the incomprehensible size of the universe almost dictates this has happened before (life arising) at some time (past present and future) and fashion, probably more than once.
all things aren't equal. It's one of the huge problems in science trying to justify the likelihood of life springing from a lightning struck puddle.
 
You are correct. Math is math and natural law applies to all of nature (not just nature here on Earth or in our solar system). Therefore, regardless of your dodge in which you jump to the "the universe could contain life elsewhere" and still does not get rid of the inconvenient fact that according to the laws of nature something cannot ever come from nothing.

...(sigh)....

circular.jpg
 
all things aren't equal. It's one of the huge problems in science trying to justify the likelihood of life springing from a lightning struck puddle.

All things being equal, meaning I know nothing else about how the number was calculated. And who said lighting striking a puddle is how it happened? Nobody knows. There are many theories on how it happened. Any supernatural cause would have to have probabilities equal too (I would say "less likely" since we are talking supernatural, but to each there own) anything else that is out there too.

The point is, if you looked at the same spot for a million trillion years, lighting would strike it more than once...so to speak.
 
The point is, if you looked at the same spot for a million trillion years, lighting would strike it more than once...so to speak.
I get that, but the odds are astronomically large and the guys calculating them are doing little more than purely guessing at them.
 

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