Billionaires and Roth IRAs: the case for tax reform

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Never used a tax preparer until I ran my own business. I rough calculated my taxes and the tax accountant saved me way more than I paid for his services.

Anybody crying for fair taxation and eliminating the cheats should be supportive of licensed individuals and firms preparing returns. Income tax returns are filed for the government with the understanding that they were prepared honestly by the tax payer. Once incomes reach a certain level or the complexity becomes challenging, 3rd party professionals being brought in makes a lot of sense. As I mentioned earlier, those with basic financial profiles have a lot of free resources to take advantage of.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Guess I view our graduated tax rates we’ve had forever already tax people more who achieve more? I view flat tax as a pipe dream that we’ll never see. We all seem to agree that tax rates are likely to rise. The POTUS ran on lowering Medicare to age 60, they’ve raised food stamps, handing out child tax credits - how are they going to pay for this stuff without finding new things to tax?

 

[McDad]

Guess I view our graduated tax rates we’ve had forever already tax people more who achieve more? I view flat tax as a pipe dream that we’ll never see. We all seem to agree that tax rates are likely to rise. The POTUS ran on lowering Medicare to age 60, they’ve raised food stamps, handing out child tax credits - how are they going to pay for this stuff without finding new things to tax?

As IG stated earlier (accurately, I might add), just because it is a law doesn't make it moral, good, or just. We have higher taxes because someone said long before we were born, income should be taxed. I suspect they only wanted the higher earners to pay...and only pay a small percentage. Well friend, once Pandora's box was opened, we are now dealing with the consequences. Instead of saying it is unjustifiable to tax people more because they make more, we are discussing at what level should the rules change. And most of us are right leaning.

There is no correlation between spending and taxation. We cannot tax our way out of the obscene debt we are in. Instead of hand wringing wondering how are we to pay without new things to tax, we should be wringing necks of those who spent money with no ability to pay. The politicians are levying a burden on our children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren. Todays politicians are pushing off the failure onto people who cannot vote because they aren't even alive.

 

[walkenvol]

And as I said his question was no more loaded than the one you posted that he replied to.

To most of us this just screams of more rich envy and another wealth redistribution grab. So it’s gonna take more than “it’s immoral” to sell us. From where I’m sitting it’s immoral to come in after the fact and make a money grab on the fortunate ones. Are we going to give equivalent tax breaks on the many more unfortunate ones who lost big on tax advantaged investment accounts. Because the result should have parity for both cases.

If you’ve lost big on your ROTH IRA that you’ve been contributing to regularly since 1998, then you are extremely unlucky.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

Notions of taxing people who achieve certain levels must be defeated on principle alone. Once you've accepted the premise that government should tax those people above those levels, you've given power for them to eventually set the rates at whatever point it is politically expedient. For every person who thinks the cutoff should be 1B, there can be just as many who think it should be 1M.

Member when Bernie said millionaires shouldn't exist, and then he became one, and then it changed to billionaires shouldn't exist?
I member.

 

[C-south]

Anybody crying for fair taxation and eliminating the cheats should be supportive of licensed individuals and firms preparing returns. Income tax returns are filed for the government with the understanding that they were prepared honestly by the tax payer. Once incomes reach a certain level or the complexity becomes challenging, 3rd party professionals being brought in makes a lot of sense. As I mentioned earlier, those with basic financial profiles have a lot of free resources to take advantage of.

It should be simple enough to where they can look at your W-2 and know what you owe. No credits, deductions, filing statuses, dependents to claim, etc.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

If you’ve lost big on your ROTH IRA that you’ve been contributing to regularly since 1998, then you are extremely unlucky.

I bet Silicon Valley is a veritable graveyard of "sure fire" Roths that were seeded with pre IPO startup stock that never amounted to jack ****.

 

[NorthDallas40]

If you’ve lost big on your ROTH IRA that you’ve been contributing to regularly since 1998, then you are extremely unlucky.

Lol the contribution quotas alone are gonna prevent that for most unless you play conversion games I think. However I stand by the premise that the law needs to be outcome neutral with regards to taxation policy.

 

[lawgator1]

How was he not paying his fair share by that definition? Did he purchase within a ROTH?

A self directed ROTH IRA is probably the best -dare I say - 'gift' that the government has yet to steal from us. If my wife would only get on board with me in terms of wanting to own rental properties, my ROTH would own a small town right now and I would be cashing checks in Thailand or some such place.

What I hear you saying is that you want to do away with the tax shelter of a ROTH IRA, and imho you can gfy. The government gets enough from me.

I don't want to "do away" with the tax shelter. I just think at some point it becomes absurd. Maybe $5 million. And only moving forward. So if you make $10 million by investing within that context you pay no taxes on the first $5 million and you pay standard capital gains on the second.

Moving forward.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

I don't want to "do away" with the tax shelter. I just think at some point it becomes absurd. Maybe $5 million. And only moving forward. So if you make $10 million by investing within that context you pay no taxes on the first $5 million and you pay standard capital gains on the second.

Moving forward.

fail.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I don't want to "do away" with the tax shelter. I just think at some point it becomes absurd. Maybe $5 million. And only moving forward. So if you make $10 million by investing within that context you pay no taxes on the first $5 million and you pay standard capital gains on the second.

Moving forward.

No. Stop it. Move on.

 

[McDad]

I don't want to "do away" with the tax shelter. I just think at some point it becomes absurd. Maybe $5 million. And only moving forward. So if you make $10 million by investing within that context you pay no taxes on the first $5 million and you pay standard capital gains on the second.

Moving forward.

See that, everyone. Just as I predicted. He started the thread about billionaires. Now the absurd amount is 5 million. This is why @Impossible Girl 's, @lawgator1 , and @walkenvol arguments MUST be rejected, defeated, destroyed, and demolished.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

See that, everyone. Just as I predicted. He started the thread about billionaires. Now the absurd amount is 5 million. This is why @Impossible Girl 's and @walkenvol arguments MUST be rejected, defeated, destroyed, and demolished.

Why won't you accept rational and reasonable limitations that will probably need to be changed in the future when things are unfair once more?

 

[walkenvol]

As IG stated earlier (accurately, I might add), just because it is a law doesn't make it moral, good, or just. We have higher taxes because someone said long before we were born, income should be taxed. I suspect they only wanted the higher earners to pay...and only pay a small percentage. Well friend, once Pandora's box was opened, we are now dealing with the consequences. Instead of saying it is unjustifiable to tax people more because they make more, we are discussing at what level should the rules change. And most of us are right leaning.

There is no correlation between spending and taxation. We cannot tax our way out of the obscene debt we are in. Instead of hand wringing wondering how are we to pay without new things to tax, we should be wringing necks of those who spent money with no ability to pay. The politicians are levying a burden on our children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren. Todays politicians are pushing off the failure onto people who cannot vote because they aren't even alive.

Your point is correct, but in reality you know it won’t happen. You probably worked hard, didn’t piss it all away and saved for retirement - your in the minority. In this country the Uber rich play the minority who didn’t do the things you did against folks like you. Folks with nothing want you to have less and them a bit more. The Uber rich can manipulate the system but the middle class keeps getting screwed. Just like they decided to grab part of your SS if you have additional sources of income, it’s very very likely they’ll be coming after your retirement savings also. I think the best defense is to get out in front of it personally.

Again - good discussion!

 

[McDad]

Why won't you accept rational and reasonable limitations that will probably need to be changed in the future when things are unfair once more?

because I am 50 and I've seen this song and dance before. Several times, in fact.

 

[McDad]

Your point is correct, but in reality you know it won’t happen. You probably worked hard, didn’t piss it all away and saved for retirement - your in the minority. In this country the Uber rich play the minority who didn’t do the things you did against folks like you. Folks with nothing want you to have less and them a bit more. The Uber rich can manipulate the system but the middle class keeps getting screwed. Just like they decided to grab part of your SS if you have additional sources of income, it’s very very likely they’ll be coming after your retirement savings also. I think the best defense is to get out in front of it personally.

Again - good discussion!

I've never looked in another man's bank account to decide if I am better or worse off than he is. And, I won't start now. I shall not covet my neighbor's stuff.

I am no more at the mercy of the Uber rich than the people who have far less than me are at my mercy.

 

[McDad]

Your point is correct, but in reality you know it won’t happen. You probably worked hard, didn’t piss it all away and saved for retirement - your in the minority. In this country the Uber rich play the minority who didn’t do the things you did against folks like you. Folks with nothing want you to have less and them a bit more. The Uber rich can manipulate the system but the middle class keeps getting screwed. Just like they decided to grab part of your SS if you have additional sources of income, it’s very very likely they’ll be coming after your retirement savings also. I think the best defense is to get out in front of it personally.

Again - good discussion!

Taxes and spending is about the only thing I discuss with any passion on this board anymore. I appreciate the discussion as well, walken.

 

[walkenvol]

See that, everyone. Just as I predicted. He started the thread about billionaires. Now the absurd amount is 5 million. This is why @Impossible Girl 's and @walkenvol arguments MUST be rejected, defeated, destroyed, and demolished.

Don’t worry about defeating me - figure out how you’re going to defeat Uncle Joe, Uncle Bernie, NP, and AOC as they’re going to be coming after our retirement accounts. Publicizing the billion dollar accounts is a smoke screen I think, the real money is in the millions of folks with 1-10 million in retirement accounts. Everyone with little to no retirement savings will be fine with them taking part of yours and mine. JMO

 

[walkenvol]

I've never looked in another man's bank account to decide if I am better or worse off than he is. And, I won't start now. I shall not covet my neighbor's stuff.

I am no more at the mercy of the Uber rich than the people who have far less than me are at my mercy.

I don’t want to insult you, but there’s no way you can’t see how politics is heavily influenced by the most wealthy in our country. How else does Bezos not pay FIT?

 

[walkenvol]

It should be simple enough to where they can look at your W-2 and know what you owe. No credits, deductions, filing statuses, dependents to claim, etc.

So what about everyone who earns their living without selling their time to a corporation?

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

So what about everyone who earns their living without selling their time to a corporation?

How much did you earn? ______________ x .1 = _________________ attach check here --->

 

[C-south]

So what about everyone who earns their living without selling their time to a corporation?

You mean business owners?

 

[walkenvol]

define 'several'. You are using the exact kind of gray language that eventually traps everyday Americans. See: AMT

How about $5 million as a starting point? These are supposed to be retirement accounts. How many retired folks can’t get by on $5 million?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

It should be simple enough to where they can look at your W-2 and know what you owe. No credits, deductions, filing statuses, dependents to claim, etc.

No consideration for dependents or marital status?

It already is very simple to prepare a 1040 EZ. Even if that is too complicated for some earners, they can get free help or even let the IRS complete their return. Online filing portals are available that are very easy to follow. I don’t know what needs to be done to simplify basic returns even more.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

How about $5 million as a starting point? These are supposed to be retirement accounts. How many retired folks can’t get by on $5 million?

no. It is not the government's business to determine someone's lifestyle wants/needs.