Breakdown Of Arrest / Citations

#251
#251
I have pretty much avoided this whole thing because I don't think any of what is being discussed here truly matters. The police more than likely aren't picking on anyone. The players probably got out of line.

What matters is how it gets handled. EVERY program has this type of stuff happen at some point. If you are surprised or overly upset then you probably just didn't have realistic expectations. It happens.

It used to be covered up. Now it is some times but comes out more often than not. So where does it go from here? ... and it DOES matter since it is a direct reflection of Jones' personal leadership and the respect/fear or lack thereof that the players have for him. I didn't believe that for a long time. Now, the Fulmer ordeal convinced me otherwise.

The players had lost respect for Fulmer. He told them that bad behavior would not be tolerated but he tolerated it. He gave the best players a longer rope. They just laughed at him and did whatever they wanted.

Kiffin in spite of being pretty stupid/immoral/thug himself gave the boot to some bad actors and made the threats real. Dooley may not have been liked or respected as a coach... but the players knew he wouldn't tolerate non-sense or cut special favors for good players. UT has not been having many of these issues since the bar fight 3 or 4 years ago. That fight costs several good players their place on the team.

So really this is a test of how much respect the players really have for Jones. That will matter both in keeping guys out of trouble and in coaching them to success.
 
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#252
#252
sjt18 said:
I have pretty much avoided this whole thing because I don't think any of what is being discussed here truly matters. The police more than likely aren't picking on anyone. The players probably got out of line.

What matters is how it gets handled. EVERY program has this type of stuff happen at some point. If you are surprised or overly upset then you probably just didn't have realistic expectations. It happens.

It used to be covered up. Now it is some times but comes out more often than not. So where does it go from here? ... and it DOES matter since it is a direct reflection of Jones' personal leadership and the respect/fear or lack thereof that the players have for him. I didn't believe that for a long time. Now, the Fulmer ordeal convinced me otherwise.

The players had lost respect for Fulmer. He told them that bad behavior would not be tolerated but he tolerated it. He gave the best players a longer rope. They just laughed at him and did whatever they wanted.

Kiffin in spite of being pretty stupid/immoral/thug himself gave the boot to some bad actors and made the threats real. Dooley may not have been liked or respected as a coach... but the players knew he wouldn't tolerate non-sense or cut special favors for good players. UT has not been having many of these issues since the bar fight 3 or 4 years ago. That fight costs several good players their place on the team.

So really this is a test of how much respect the players really have for Jones. That will matter both in keeping guys out of trouble and in coaching them to success.
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Da'Rick??

Dooley is not a good example.

The Fulmer stance is wrong as well.
 
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#256
#256
Eddie Vol Halen said:
Da'Rick??

Dooley is not a good example.

The Fulmer stance is wrong as well.
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Good point though Rogers was shown the door eventually. I'd say things got much quieter while Dooley was around though. I have no way of knowing whether he did it or the administration gave him no choice. He let B Brown go rather than agree to treat him differently. Though it might well have cost him his job or contributed to it, I respected him for doing that. The J Jackson situation also.... When was Cam Cameron cut loose (I really can't remember but think it was by DD)?

If you are saying my stance on Fulmer is wrong... then you are just wrong. Discipline was never good without Cut on or off the field. Fulmer's last few years were riddled with a string of things this bad and far worse.
 
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#258
#258
terrypedigo said:
A 21 year old giving a 20 year old on campus beer, what do we do sent him to the chair or life.:eek:lol:
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I have not drank alcohol in more than 25 years. I advise people to avoid it and definitely to avoid getting drunk.

But it is the height of inconsistency and stupidity that we can trust an 18 year old kid to aim a 155 Howitzer capable of killing a mass of people... we can hand him an M-16 and give him "rules for engagement"... and yet somehow they shouldn't have the freedom to drink alcohol.

For that matter, we have folks who argue that a 13 year old girl has a "right" to end an unborn life through abortion with significant risk to their personal health and life... but an 18 year old does not have a "right" to risk their own life by drinking alcohol?

I disagree with drunkeness... and the restriction of other adults' freedom to do it.
 
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#259
#259
sjt18 said:
Good point though Rogers was shown the door eventually. I'd say things got much quieter while Dooley was around though. I have no way of knowing whether he did it or the administration gave him no choice. He let B Brown go rather than agree to treat him differently. Though it might well have cost him his job or contributed to it, I respected him for doing that. The J Jackson situation also.... When was Cam Cameron cut loose (I really can't remember but think it was by DD)?

If you are saying my stance on Fulmer is wrong... then you are just wrong. Discipline was never good without Cut on or off the field. Fulmer's last few years were riddled with a string of things this bad and far worse.
Click to expand...

The entire "discipline" argument is off-the-wall IMHO. Look at what Meyer had in Gainesville. Fulmer's teams weren't that bad. In fact, the two worst incidents in living memory have happened since Fulmer left - Cam Clear and the Pilot Station.

As for standard bar fights, beer drinking, and marijuana - I think those are non-issues. I tend to think this incident should certainly be dealt with internally - we should never know what Jones does to this group of "bad boys".
 
#260
#260
No. Discipline is discipline and it DIRECTLY reflects on the respect a team has for its coach.

Meyer inherited a loaded team from a great recruiter who couldn't coach. He left the program in decline and with a bunch of problems.

Fulmer had numerous scandals. It was an embarrassment and probably cost him a chance for one more year.
 
#261
#261
Most issues are kept internal unless the players do them publicly. No one but these players had any choice in that regard.
 
#262
#262
If some of you want UT Football to exist and be competitive for championships, there's just some realities you're going to have to accept. Every team that's worth a damn (and most that aren't) has their share of "shady" characters. Its always been this way and it always will be. Sure we could field a team of choir boys but we'd be subjecting ourselves to a weekly ass beating from August through December. At some point you just have to accept that this is where we are at with these young athletes and good or bad, right or wrong, you're going to have to sort of hold your nose and endure these kinds of things if you want to enjoy the Saturdays when these young men perform on the field. The way I see it, they're not my kids. They're not my responsibility. I'll let the man who gets paid millions to be responsible for handling this handle it and I'll just continue to root for my team to victory, regardless of who's wearing the uniforms.
 
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#263
#263
sjt18 said:
I have pretty much avoided this whole thing because I don't think any of what is being discussed here truly matters. The police more than likely aren't picking on anyone. The players probably got out of line.

What matters is how it gets handled. EVERY program has this type of stuff happen at some point. If you are surprised or overly upset then you probably just didn't have realistic expectations. It happens.

It used to be covered up. Now it is some times but comes out more often than not. So where does it go from here? ... and it DOES matter since it is a direct reflection of Jones' personal leadership and the respect/fear or lack thereof that the players have for him. I didn't believe that for a long time. Now, the Fulmer ordeal convinced me otherwise.

The players had lost respect for Fulmer. He told them that bad behavior would not be tolerated but he tolerated it. He gave the best players a longer rope. They just laughed at him and did whatever they wanted.

Kiffin in spite of being pretty stupid/immoral/thug himself gave the boot to some bad actors and made the threats real. Dooley may not have been liked or respected as a coach... but the players knew he wouldn't tolerate non-sense or cut special favors for good players. UT has not been having many of these issues since the bar fight 3 or 4 years ago. That fight costs several good players their place on the team.

So really this is a test of how much respect the players really have for Jones. That will matter both in keeping guys out of trouble and in coaching them to success.
Click to expand...

There is a massive difference between robbing a gas station, owning illegal firearms, getting into massive bar brawls, abusing women, wearing a fake dong for a pee test and.... drinking at the age of 19/20 at a fellow player's birthday party.

What are the guys supposed to do? Segregate the team when they party based on age? Not party at all?

Tell the kids to be more careful next time, ensure everyone was planning to get home responsibly, pick a new place to party so they aren't on the po po radar, and tell them to turn down the music next time and/or invite the neighbors.

I can guarantee you that if Butch suspends/goes overboard on the players publicly, he has to deal with rival coaches using it against him on the recruiting trail. To me, that's a much greater risk than falling down some slippery slope of disrespect and culture degradation.
 
#265
#265
Hyams just tweeted that the "staff member" at the party was in reality a walk-on fball, but doesn't identify him
 
#270
#270
The trick is to open massage parlors just for them then they will be ready for football practice
 
#271
#271
Eddie Vol Halen said:
The entire "discipline" argument is off-the-wall IMHO. Look at what Meyer had in Gainesville. Fulmer's teams weren't that bad. In fact, the two worst incidents in living memory have happened since Fulmer left - Cam Clear and the Pilot Station.

As for standard bar fights, beer drinking, and marijuana - I think those are non-issues. I tend to think this incident should certainly be dealt with internally - we should never know what Jones does to this group of "bad boys".
Click to expand...

Sorry man but if u think that the Cam Clear issue (sjt...DD recruit and he had to kick him off too) then ur living memory is very short. Fulmers yrs had way worse than that incident, but things were swept under the rug easier cause social media wasn't around then.
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#272
#272
gunner said:
Not passing judgment on these players, but obviously when the police charge someone with resisting arrest it is because they weren't following the lawful orders of the police. Hence, the disrespect. . . .
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Sorry, but no, it is not "obvious" that when the police charge someone with resisting arrest it is necessarily because they are willfully disobeying orders. I've seen too many videos of apparent brutality in which someone is being beaten or tazed and the actual convulsions and writhings in pain, or attempts to cover one's head and genitals, is deliberately characterized as "resistance" and used as pretext for such charges. I'm not saying that is the case here. There may have been actual resistance, I don't know, but that sort of thing happens too much nowadays to claim it is "obvious." There is a reason why trust in police officers and their version of events is on the decline.
 
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#273
#273
Stevorino said:
There is a massive difference between robbing a gas station, owning illegal firearms, getting into massive bar brawls, abusing women, wearing a fake dong for a pee test and.... drinking at the age of 19/20 at a fellow player's birthday party.
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Yes. Except a lack of discipline will lead to many occurrences of any or all of those things. This is a test for Jones. I hope and believe he will handle it appropriately. Hopefully he nips it in the bud before guys get comfortable enough to do even more reckless things.

What are the guys supposed to do? Segregate the team when they party based on age? Not party at all?
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How about being smart enough to not disturb neighbors and then if you do and the police show up... don't be a smart a$$. Just do what they say even if that includes turning the music down. In short... don't be stupid.

Tell the kids to be more careful next time, ensure everyone was planning to get home responsibly, pick a new place to party so they aren't on the po po radar, and tell them to turn down the music next time and/or invite the neighbors.
Click to expand...
If the players in question had done this... we would have never known the police had been there if they had gone at all.

I can guarantee you that if Butch suspends/goes overboard on the players publicly, he has to deal with rival coaches using it against him on the recruiting trail.
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No. He won't. The right kind of players will at least respect a coach that disciplines guys for breaking the rules if not be even more attracted to them. Parents will like it as well. The thing that would hurt recruiting MORE is if he goes too soft and these things become as common as they were in Fulmer's last few years. Those things did in fact hurt Fulmer's recruiting significantly.

To me, that's a much greater risk than falling down some slippery slope of disrespect and culture degradation.
Click to expand...

Nope... because that slippery slope takes you to the place you fear going. It hurts recruiting and especially recruiting the "right" kind of players who can stay out of trouble and eligible. If the talent Fulmer recruited to UT had stayed eligible... he probably would have won another SEC championship in the mid-00's. Guys like Banks, Morley, Vinson, et al were elite athletes who just couldn't stay out of trouble.
 
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#274
#274
TNinOR said:
Sorry, but no, it is not "obvious" that when the police charge someone with resisting arrest it is necessarily because they are willfully disobeying orders. I've seen too many videos of apparent brutality in which someone is being beaten or tazed and the actual convulsions and writhings in pain, or attempts to cover one's head and genitals, is deliberately characterized as "resistance" and used as pretext for such charges. I'm not saying that is the case here. There may have been actual resistance, I don't know, but that sort of thing happens too much nowadays to claim it is "obvious." There is a reason why trust in police officers and their version of events is on the decline.
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Why don't you ask our head coach who was in the wrong on this incident, the Police or the players at the party? Go ahead and send him an email, I would love to hear his response.
 
#275
#275
gunner said:
Why don't you ask our head coach who was in the wrong on this incident, the Police or the players at the party? Go ahead and send him an email, I would love to hear his response.
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I'm anxious to hear his response as well, but I wouldn't want to be in his shoes. On the one hand, you have a man who comes from a law-enforcement background, so he is obviously going to have pro-law-and-order sentiments, and on the other you have a bunch of young adults who feel that the current law setting the legal drinking age at 21 is unjust (and I and many others sympathize with them, as you have probably gathered).

If he comes down hard on them, it may not go over very well with the team and student body, but if the punishment is light, then many in the community (and there are many people in Tennessee who still think that ALL alcohol is wrong) and local law enforcement are going to accuse him of being just another coach who turns a blind eye for the sake of football.

Now if there was actual and significant physical resistance of the authorities and/or other unacceptable behavior—and I'm not saying there wasn't (we don't have all the facts as yet)—the decision might be a little easier for him. But if it's just a matter of a bunch of young people having a good time and not hurting anyone vs. the zealous enforcement of an unjust law, as I said, I wouldn't want to be in Coach Jones' shoes.
 
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