Breakdown Of Arrest / Citations

[gunner]

I'm anxious to hear his response as well, but I wouldn't want to be in his shoes. On the one hand, you have a man who comes from a law-enforcement background, so he is obviously going to have pro-law-and-order sentiments, and on the other you have a bunch of young adults who feel that the current law setting the legal drinking age at 21 is unjust (and I and many others sympathize with them, as you have probably gathered).

If he comes down hard on them, it may not go over very well with the team and student body, but if the punishment is light, then many in the community (and there are many people in Tennessee who still think that ALL alcohol is wrong) and local law enforcement are going to accuse him of being just another coach who turns a blind eye for the sake of football.

Now if there was actual and significant physical resistance of the authorities—and I'm not saying there wasn't (we don't have all the facts as yet)—the decision might be a little easier for him. But if it's just a matter of a bunch of young people having a good time and not hurting anyone vs. the zealous enforcement of an unjust law, as I said, I wouldn't want to be in Coach Jones' shoes.

The under aged drinking isn't the problem, it's the fact that the players continued to do so after the police were there warning them to keep the music down. Once the police made the scene our plays put themselves in a bad position by staying a drinking and providing alcohol to those under age, especially, when the music was turned back up after the police had asked them to keep it down.

 

[Shakinthefat]

The under aged drinking isn't the problem.

Really? How many of those underaged drinkers had car keys in their pockets? If they are not mature enough to abide by the drinking law, they probably ignore the DWI laws too.
The road to Quarry Trail Apt is narrow and very dangerous when driving sober much less buzzed. If someone died that night due to this party and drinking, the football program will feel the effects for years.
Stop defending these guys. They screwed up, time to suffer consequences.

 

[TNinOR]

If they are not mature enough to abide by the drinking law, they probably ignore the DWI laws too.

That's just about the crux of the issue, isn't it? Once again: If a government deems someone "mature enough" to have his GUTS BLOWN OUT in warfare, then turns around and says he IS NOT mature enough to drink alcohol responsibly, that is ultimate, OUTRAGEOUS, hypocrisy, PERIOD. They are ADULTS. They are supposed to be FREE ADULTS under our system, and the system says, NO, you are not free. Drunk driving (truly drunk driving) is awful, but there are other, APPROPRIATE remedies for that which do not infringe upon the freedoms upon which this country was founded.

 

[gunner]

Really? How many of those underaged drinkers had car keys in their pockets? If they are not mature enough to abide by the drinking law, they probably ignore the DWI laws too.
The road to Quarry Trail Apt is narrow and very dangerous when driving sober much less buzzed. If someone died that night due to this party and drinking, the football program will feel the effects for years.
Stop defending these guys. They screwed up, time to suffer consequences.

That's an entirely separate issue. Anyone who goes out to drink should have a designated driver or just call a cab.

 

[Shakinthefat]

They are supposed to be FREE ADULTS under our system, and the system says, NO, you are not free.

So as a FREE ADULT I can go out and rob a 7/11, blast thru a stop sign or abuse my girlfriend because of the freedom bestowed upon me under the Constition...interesting!
Accepting a football scholarship or signing up for military service is a choice made by the individual. No one is forced to become a GI Joe.

 

[DoubleA]

If by law they are adults, they should have the same rights as all other adults.

 

[Shakinthefat]

That's an entirely separate issue. Anyone who goes out to drink should have a designated driver or just call a cab.

You said it....SHOULD.

Many freshmen will at some point consider hopping into a car with a buzzed driver purely out of convenience; 40 percent of college students admit to doing so, and the stigma for such activity is significantly less than it should be. The idea of designating a sober driver, while imperfect, is a time-tested method for getting people home safely, but its safe execution is a rare phenomenon among college students. Studies have found that student “designated” drivers were often picked after drinking and frequently had blood-alcohol content (BAC) levels similar to their passengers.

 

[TNinOR]

So as a FREE ADULT I can go out and rob a 7/11, blast thru a stop sign or abuse my girlfriend because of the freedom bestowed upon me under the Constition...interesting!
Accepting a football scholarship or signing up for military service is a choice made by the individual. No one is forced to become a GI Joe.

Wow! Please examine your logic, sir! Laws against "robbing a 7/11", "blast[ing] through a stop sign" and "abus[ing] my girlfriend" are just, fair, equitable, reasonable, consistent laws.

On the other hand, there used to be laws against, for example, folks of color riding the same bus as white folks. Would you lump the folks who opposed and resisted those laws in with your thieves, reckless drivers, and misogynists? The point is, what is an adult in the eyes of the law? If a person is an adult, then under the (original) American system of government he is supposed to be afforded unalienable rights, which he, of course, is expected to exercise responsibly. If he doesn't, there are other remedies that don't involve taking everyone's rights away in the name of protecting us against him!

 

[tennrich1]

Did they harm anybody? We're they driving? No. This sounds like these cops trying to puff out their chest. Congrats guys, hope you feel like winners. At least nobody got tazed or sprayed.

You're actually more right than you realize....the law had to have shown incredible restraint not to spray or taze someone....they can definitely do that when someone is a.) interfering with arrest and b.) resisting arrest...so you are correct...these guys are VERY LUCKY that the officers exercised extreme restraint....

 

[Shakinthefat]

Wow! Please examine your logic, sir!

Whether its a federal or state law, it is there for a reason, put there by a democratic process. You can choose to obey these laws, that is your right. It's still a crime to break the law from murder to underage drinking. The citizens of the state of Tennessee voted to have the legal drinking age to 21. If you disapprove and have trouble thinking your freedom is being destroyed then move, sir!

 

[TNinOR]

Whether its a federal or state law, it is there for a reason, put there by a democratic process. You can choose to obey these laws, that is your right. It's still a crime to break the law from murder to underage drinking. The citizens of the state of Tennessee voted to have the legal drinking age to 21. If you disapprove and have trouble thinking your freedom is being destroyed then move, sir!

And hopefully it can still be opposed and removed according to a democratic process! But maybe not. As for moving away, we came out of the soil upon which we were born according to the express will of a thoughtful Creator, not by the permission of any government. Nevertheless we may be forced one day to move away to escape tyranny as many of our forefathers did when they fled from Europe and other locations around the world.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Whether its a federal or state law, it is there for a reason, put there by a democratic process. You can choose to obey these laws, that is your right. It's still a crime to break the law from murder to underage drinking. The citizens of the state of Tennessee voted to have the legal drinking age to 21. If you disapprove and have trouble thinking your freedom is being destroyed then move, sir!

And the citizens of Alabama voted to have segregated buses, and Rosa Parks broke the law. I assume that you see her as a criminal instead of a champion. After all, the law is the law.
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[utvol372]

Whether its a federal or state law, it is there for a reason, put there by a democratic process. You can choose to obey these laws, that is your right. It's still a crime to break the law from murder to underage drinking. The citizens of the state of Tennessee voted to have the legal drinking age to 21. If you disapprove and have trouble thinking your freedom is being destroyed then move, sir!

Um, sir...

You're getting all moral on us when you frequent a website in which copyrighted information (Recruiting info) is disseminated for free, which you then patronize. So yeah, I guess you should feel like a criminal, right?

Oh wait, no law is perfect...

 

[Shakinthefat]

And the citizens of Alabama voted to have segregated buses, and Rosa Parks broke the law. I assume that you see her as a criminal instead of a champion. After all, the law is the law.
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History shows us there were many stupid laws and there still are stupid laws. IMO the drinking age is set for the health and safety of the public. Maybe one day there will be a Constitution Amendment to legalize the drinking age to 18. Just like the 14th Amendment eliminated states from discriminating against race. Comparing Rosa Parks and a 17 yr old early enrollee underage drinker is a sad comparison.

 

[JCHateSteve]

Whether its a federal or state law, it is there for a reason, put there by a democratic process. You can choose to obey these laws, that is your right. It's still a crime to break the law from murder to underage drinking. The citizens of the state of Tennessee voted to have the legal drinking age to 21. If you disapprove and have trouble thinking your freedom is being destroyed then move, sir!

No, they didn't. The legal drinking age in Tennessee was raised to 21 as a part of the Drinking age act of 1984. It was a federal statute that required the states to raise their drinking age to 21 or be faced with a loss of federal funds. The citizens of Tennessee never voted on this law. It was handed down by congress. You are correct though their is a reason the law is in place. Activist groups like MADD lobbied the federal government for the raised drinking age and won. The will of the people in Tennessee was not a factor.

 

[Stevorino]

Yes. Except a lack of discipline will lead to many occurrences of any or all of those things. This is a test for Jones. I hope and believe he will handle it appropriately. Hopefully he nips it in the bud before guys get comfortable enough to do even more reckless things.

How about being smart enough to not disturb neighbors and then if you do and the police show up... don't be a smart a$$. Just do what they say even if that includes turning the music down. In short... don't be stupid.

If the players in question had done this... we would have never known the police had been there if they had gone at all.

No. He won't. The right kind of players will at least respect a coach that disciplines guys for breaking the rules if not be even more attracted to them. Parents will like it as well. The thing that would hurt recruiting MORE is if he goes too soft and these things become as common as they were in Fulmer's last few years. Those things did in fact hurt Fulmer's recruiting significantly.



Nope... because that slippery slope takes you to the place you fear going. It hurts recruiting and especially recruiting the "right" kind of players who can stay out of trouble and eligible. If the talent Fulmer recruited to UT had stayed eligible... he probably would have won another SEC championship in the mid-00's. Guys like Banks, Morley, Vinson, et al were elite athletes who just couldn't stay out of trouble.

I really hate the slippery slope argument in just about every application - it's such a lazy way of connecting two dots.

Josh Dobbs leads a snowball fight in Neyland: Butch should kick him off the team, next thing we know it Dobbs is going to lead a coup d'etat and takeover the football team. He will use his newfound leverage to overthrow the athletic department and ship all of our student athletes to Antarctica to worship a Penguin God.

Antonio Richardson should have never been allowed to name himself 'Tiny' - it's going to cause women to have self-esteem issues and the anorexic population of Tennessee to increase. Before we know it there won't be a demand for food and our farmers will lose their jobs, the economy will collapse, and we will be no better off than an African third-world country.

1. I'm going to say it again, there is a MASSIVE difference in underage drinking and robbing a gas station and owning illegal firearms, etc. One does not lead to the other. The average student at UT has a legitimate shot at getting the same violations these guys did. If you disagree, you either didn't go to UT or you did and had a hard time finding friends.

2. Your memory is missing a major piece of the story, which was that Fulmer got ridiculously lazy with his recruiting and started relying on the thug players. He wasn't turning kids into thugs with a lack of discipline, he was recruiting thugs and not putting in the work to keep them in line and/or reform them.

3. I do agree that it sounds like the hosts could have done a better job managing the party's impact to neighboring units. I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure. If my kids were in college and I got the phone call that they were underage drinking/distributing to minors, I'd roll my eyes and be mad for the headache and late night call. Dealing with the legal system is going to be punishment enough - I'd be more upset if their GPA dropped below 3.0. If it happens again? Bring the paddle out to practice and let everyone spank'em.

 

[TNinOR]

Comparing Rosa Parks and a 17 yr old early enrollee underage drinker is a sad comparison.

Who compared Rosa Parks with a 17 year old? I think we can all agree that a 17-year-old is still a minor. Let's compare her to all the 18-20-year-olds. Is that a sad comparison? Do you think the majority of 18-20-year-old ADULTS in Tennessee . . . Oregon, or Afghanistan . . . Iraq, where many young people have probably died having never "legally" tasted a fine wine, think that's a pitiful, sad comparison? Let's ask them, if we can.

OH spare me from all the people out there willing to take away my rights in the name of "public health and safety" when there is ALWAYS a better way.

 

[JCHateSteve]

History shows us there were many stupid laws and there still are stupid laws. IMO the drinking age is set for the health and safety of the public. Maybe one day there will be a Constitution Amendment to legalize the drinking age to 18. Just like the 14th Amendment eliminated states from discriminating against race. Comparing Rosa Parks and a 17 yr old early enrollee underage drinker is a sad comparison.

Dude...why would their be a constitutional amendment to lower the drinking age? The age of 21 was not written into the constitution by the founding fathers or anyone else. The state could lower the drinking age if the wanted they would just sacrifice federal funding due to the law passed by congress i mentioned in my previous post. It's not a constitutional issue. Congress can just as easily repeal the 1984 law that established a national drinking age. The fact that you agree with it doesn't make it one of the pillars of our system of government. You agree with the law and that's fine, but you should probably take a refresher civics class. Your arguments on the subject don't help your point when you get things that wrong.

 

[Shakinthefat]

Who compared Rosa Parks with a 17 year old? I think we can all agree that a 17-year-old is still a minor. Let's compare her to all the 18-20-year-olds. Is that a sad comparison? Do you think the majority of 18-20-year-old ADULTS in Tennessee . . . Oregon, or Afghanistan . . . Iraq, where many young people have probably died having never "legally" tasted a fine wine, think that's a pitiful, sad comparison? Let's ask them, if we can.

OH spare me from all the people out there willing to take away my rights in the name of "public health and safety" when there is ALWAYS a better way.

I've been to military funerals of my fellow vets killed in the line of duty. I've been to funerals of people killed by drunks. The difference is the vets volunteered and knew the risk, the DWI victims did not. By the way both of my fellow vets drank beer, couldn't afford "fine wine".

 

[NCFisher]

I've been to military funerals of my fellow vets killed in the line of duty. I've been to funerals of people killed by drunks. The difference is the vets volunteered and knew the risk, the DWI victims did not. By the way both of my fellow vets drank beer, couldn't afford "fine wine".

The point is no one needs government busybodies - who are never sated by their last intrusive decree - to save us from ourselves.

 

[ChattaVoll]

I don't want players that don't blow off steam.

I also don't want players that think they are Gods and can get away with anything. This is a minor incident at most and will be out of memory for 99.999% of people by the beginning of next week at the latest.

OTOH, I don't want to see some players thinking if they can get away with a minor incident that they can push their luck and end up doing something really bad/stupid.

We got lucky this time around being the off season and a relatively minor incident. I prefer trying to avoid the possibility of some idiot doing something at more a inopportune time, like ending up in jail on DUI charges the night before the team jets off to Missouri, or a couple of players going the way of that Texas A&M player and Utah State player killed just before the season last year.

 

[TechnoVol]

Completely off the rails lol! This thread... opcorn:

 

[butchna]

Really? How many of those underaged drinkers had car keys in their pockets? If they are not mature enough to abide by the drinking law, they probably ignore the DWI laws too.
The road to Quarry Trail Apt is narrow and very dangerous when driving sober much less buzzed. If someone died that night due to this party and drinking, the football program will feel the effects for years.
Stop defending these guys. They screwed up, time to suffer consequences.

How many OF-AGE OR OLDER drinkers had car keys in their pocket?...nonissue as long as said keys STAY in the pocket.
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[Swan Ronson]

How do you know what AJ did or didn't do? What if he was sober and trying to help? Is that not feasible? Officers say nothing about him being drunk or high. Or he is supposed to just not go at all?

Some of you wouldn't have survived the 80's on campuses. We wouldn't be able to field a team. This stuff happened all the time, except there was usually cocaine, weed, alcohol, and violence.

You completely missed the entire point I was trying to make. I don't know what he did aside from getting himself arrested. A higher standard means there is less room for error. If he was sober/buzzed/drunk/high/anything else, he is the one who put himself in that situation. If you go to a party where there is illicit activities going on, you have to know that if something goes down, very few are going to get away unscathed. For an SEC captain to get caught up in that nonsense is nobody's fault but his own.

 

[gunner]

Here's what Dave Hooker thinks happened, and what coach Butch Jones should do.

Butch Jones should send a message - Tennessee Sports Radio - Tennessee Sports Radio