Butch Has Enough Talent...

[k-town_king]

Your saying so won't make your statement true either.

The OL is among the best in the SEC. The "talent" on the DL and experience is pretty good as well.



If you think Dooley was satisfactory then you should be satisfied with six wins from Jones with this roster.

Dooley's "year zero" roster included NO returning starting OL's (only one letterman), NO QB's on the roster (as in none), NO RB's that had ever played in anything more that mop up... and only one of those, NO DT's (Joe Ayres even started a game or two), secondary was at least as bad, best DE had ruined knees, LB's had experience but little talent and a walk-on starting at MLB.


Dooley who many here made out to be the Devil incarnate and no one here believes should have gotten more time... won six games against a schedule that was at least as difficult and should have won 7.

I think pretty much all of us agree that Dooley couldn't coach. Right? So if Dooley against a schedule at least as difficult with a much worse roster managed six wins... Why is six reasonable or even "good" for Jones?

IMHO, if Jones only wins six then we could well be looking at Dooley Part Deux.

On the roster enrolled when Dooley got here were Bryce Brown, Tyler Bray, and Aaron Douglass. The secondary and wr's were way better than what we have.

 

[sjt18]

Still defending your hero even though he is without question the worst coach UT has ever had and it's not even close.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Not my hero and never was. There is just a rational way about managing that situation and a irrational way that assures continued failure.

Just stating facts. He started with a much worse roster against a schedule just as bad and won six games. He got a legit chance to prove himself and proved he couldn't coach.

So if a guy who we now KNOW was not a good coach won six with a worse situation and should have won two more.... then what would six wins from Jones prove?

 

[VolBeef88]

On the roster enrolled when Dooley got here were Bryce Brown, Tyler Bray, and Aaron Douglass. The secondary and wr's were way better than what we have.

You're wasting your time. He is the Dooley lover almighty.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[sjt18]

On the roster enrolled when Dooley got here were Bryce Brown, Tyler Bray, and Aaron Douglass. The secondary and wr's were way better than what we have.

Bray was an EE who had never been to a UT workout. BB was a prima donna who really didn't have any more to show returning than Lane does this year. Douglass had issues and was gone when Kiffin made his announcement. His departure did not appear to have much to do with Dooley.

 

[sjt18]

You're wasting your time. He is the Dooley lover almighty.
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Right... that's why I started saying he should be fired after the USCe game, right? Recognizing the relative strengths of the two rosters has nothing to do with the actual coaching ability of either guy.

 

[Oskie Volum]

2 timeouts to be precise.....i wouldnt wanna play for a coach who pretty much said he had no faith in me either

At what pt in the 4th qtr of that game would u say that the O earned the respect from the coaches? Everyone blames the D and the coaches but not the O. It took my drunkazz 2 seconds to realize why DD made the decision and imo it was the best atm.

Got to love the bash DD threads...

 

[Burger]

Not Wilcox's scheme exactly but it is the 4-3 and the techniques are the same.

Chaney ran a modified version of the spread alot. There will be some issues but not enough to make 6 wins anything like the ceiling or the "reasonable" expectation.



This roster should win more than 6 if Jones is the right coach to take UT back to competing for titles. If he wins six then there's no reason to be confident that he's better than Dooley. Dooley's first team looked more competitive than many expected so there's no real solace in that.

Wilcox and Janceks defenses are very different. Wilcox ran zone, and Jancek runs man. Those are both taught with different techniques. They're totally different schemes. Were lucky that our defense has over majority of the playbook down. It's not like every single one of our coaches said our players need a lot of technique work. Wait! They did!!!!

Your knowledge of football shows when you think Chaney's and Bajakians offenses are similar. Everybody runs the spread buddy. Chaney used deeper routes opposed to Bajakian using shorter routes. We also run the read option now. Our receivers have to learn a new route tree, and terminology. The oline has to learn the steps of zone opposed to man on man. The backs have to learn new protection schemes, and new routes.

Keep in mind that Jones has to beat out the losing attitude Fooley had on the players. I want you to make a 3 deep depth chart at every position. It has to reflect what we put out there this spring.

 

[Tenacguy50]

Wilcox and Janceks defenses are very different. Wilcox ran zone, and Jancek runs man. Those are both taught with different techniques. They're totally different schemes. Were lucky that our defense has over majority of the playbook down. It's not like every single one of our coaches said our players need a lot of technique work. Wait! They did!!!!

Your knowledge of football shows when you think Chaney's and Bajakians offenses are similar. Everybody runs the spread buddy. Chaney used deeper routes opposed to Bajakian using shorter routes. We also run the read option now. Our receivers have to learn a new route tree, and terminology. The oline has to learn the steps of zone opposed to man on man. The backs have to learn new protection schemes, and new routes.

Keep in mind that Jones has to beat out the losing attitude Fooley had on the players. I want you to make a 3 deep depth chart at every position. It has to reflect what we put out there this spring.

I do not think you can put too much into the spring game. And we have to hope that the current defensive & offensive squads can manage to learn the new schemes, etc at a good pace. It's not like this is the first time any of them have put on a helmet & played any football. They should have the basics down & build on it.

 

[Burger]

I do not think you can put too much into the spring game. And we have to hope that the current defensive & offensive squads can manage to learn the new schemes, etc at a good pace. It's not like this is the first time any of them have put on a helmet & played any football. They should have the basics down & build on it.

I don't think we even have the basics down... Dooley didn't teach these boys much about the basics of football. What do Sentimorre, Bray, Hunter, and Patterson had in common? They all had problems with the fundamentals of their game. We wasted 3 years of time under Dooley.

 

[Boca Vol]

I don't think we even have the basics down... Dooley didn't teach these boys much about the basics of football. What do Sentimorre, Bray, Hunter, and Patterson had in common? They all had problems with the fundamentals of their game. We wasted 3 years of time under Dooley.

Without Dools there is no:

1. "Fear the Pants" flash mob during the '11 S. Carolina game.

2. Orange Dog.

3. A really cerebral "Opportunity is Nowhere" sign on the door.

Wasted years, my butt!

 

[tennfever]

Can someone explain where this Dooley let his assts do too much he micro managed them to death someone is badly mis informed

 

[driley3]

IMHO, if Jones only wins six then we could well be looking at Dooley Part Deux.

Oh ****, and so it begins! Unrealistic expectations are what got us in this mess to begin with.

 

[Biscut]

So reading through the thread, I have come to some assumptions and conclusions.

1. We will win football games next season, we may even pull out an upset or two.
2. CBJ is putting swagger back in UT football, which feels real good right about now.
3. We are recruiting real well, kids want to put on the Power T, very nice
4. Finally, we will not know the outcome of the season until we play the games.

So with all that said, I am enjoying the off season. Because I am optimistic about our future.

 

[Oskie Volum]

What I find funny is how many of the same people who NEVER wanted to hold Dooley accountable and made excuses at his every turn now have set expectations on Butch at a MUCH higher level than they EVER set on Dooley.
This in spite of Butch taking over the biggest debacle in UT history while UT being part of the toughest conference in college football history.
I don't know if Butch is the coach that will take us back to the promise land but I do know he is at least a head coach with a winning back ground.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Just a few quick questions...is the NCAA on campus? Is CBJ having to take over the bldg of the new facilities? Is the AD that hired him on his last leg? Did the last coach just leave 10 days prior to signing day? Does he have a depleted roster (#s wise)? Had a team full of players that just dealt with the firing of a legendary coach and got crapped on by the last guy? Etc etc

Our schedule 2010 was just as tough as this year. The SEC West opponents were the best in the league/country. Plus Oregon with Chip Kelly.

I'd like to hear ur take on what debacle CBJ walked into compared to the above. Seriously I do wonder. We both know I'm one of the guys u call out first above. No insults, take out ur personal hatred for DD, be objective, and just convince me that CBJ walked into a WAY worse situation all around. Thx.

For the record: I'm not putting much pressure on CBJ right now. ATP I'll be happy with not losing 8 for the first time in history and seeing a team that plays hard. If he does the bare min I will be concerned, if he steps it up in the 6-8 range I'll be content. If he has one of those crazy seasons and pulls 10+ I'll be happy but concerned too.

IMO, not many of others, think this teamed played hard last year. Unfortunately there were some in positions to mess it up. CBJ is being handed a team with players that have experience in the trenches and played hard. Ready to prove something. They know what to expect, and this will help mask out other deficiencies. 2011 they got blown out in the 2nd half and 2012 they were taking teams to the wire. IMO, not others, that shows improvement and grit.

Just all imho that's all...

 

[sjt18]

Oh ****, and so it begins! Unrealistic expectations are what got us in this mess to begin with.

I guess that goes to the heart of what you expect. If you expect the second tier program UT had become under Fulmer then perhaps it is "unrealistic" to expect a coach to produce a team better than the sum of its parts.

If you expect championship caliber teams then there is nothing unrealistic about expecting him to beat every team on his schedule this year that he has a talent advantage over plus one game against an opponent with roughly the same or slightly more talent.

Dooley failed as head coach and was ultimately and rightly fired. He won 6 games his first year with a schedule just as difficult and with a worse roster. That really isn't debatable. It is a fact of history.

And NO, that is NOT what got UT into the mess it is in. Having high expectations and standards DOES NOT cause failure. Having expectations that are too low... DOES.

The 9 year decline due to the complacency of Fulmer and his supporters is what got the program where it is. This coupled with 2007 and 2009 recruiting classes which were near total busts and sandwiched CPF's lowest rated recruiting class of his career in 2008. Fulmer got lazy and entitled. His recruiting dropped off significantly. Kiffin's sideshow didn't help. Dooley leaves more talent than he inherited and a more disciplined program but did little else of value within the program. His personality, style, and PR choices did not help the program's image or fan/alumni support.


Jones is answering as best he can every problem he's inherited. That does NOT mean you lower the bar for him or expect him to only win the games he should win. The fact that it had become acceptable for Fulmer to beat everyone he "should" have beaten and virtually no one that mattered... was a big part of the problem as well. The "right" coach for UT will beat the teams he is supposed to beat as consistently as Fulmer did but also more than half of the teams with comparable talent and at least occasionally upset more talented teams.

 

[sjt18]

What I find funny is how many of the same people who NEVER wanted to hold Dooley accountable and made excuses at his every turn now have set expectations on Butch at a MUCH higher level than they EVER set on Dooley.

If you are referring to me then you are lying... again.

Dooley inherited a mess. Kiffin started but did not finish restoring discipline within the program. The roster due to 3 consecutive horrible recruiting classes was terrible.

I advocated he get time but also that he be held to a standard. I stated what I thought his standard should be when everyone else was in the honeymoon phase with him... and was attacked for that just like I am now for suggesting that Jones standard should be high. I said he needed to prove he could build a roster a prove he could compete by winning meaningful games and competing for the SEC by year 3.

This in spite of Butch taking over the biggest debacle in UT history while UT being part of the toughest conference in college football history.

Debacle? Dooley failing as a HC does not change the cold hard fact that he leaves more talent to Jones than he inherited from Kiffin/Fulmer. The schedule this fall includes Oregon rather than Cincy as the big OOC game... but Arkansas under Petrino and LSU are replaced by Auburn and Mizzou. I know which schedule I would rather face.

If Jones is a better coach than Dooley... and I think and hope he is... then six wins is too low for an expectation.

I don't know if Butch is the coach that will take us back to the promise land but I do know he is at least a head coach with a winning back ground.
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And that is a good thing. But why should the standard or expectation be lowered because of that?

Ten wins was a pretty "reasonable" expectation for last year's roster. Dooley fell WAY short. And as I have stated directly to you on MANY occasions now... he was rightly fired and frankly should have been fired following USCe.

NONE of what you or others have stated relates to the actual reality of the roster and program. You just say "Oh well, the last few years have been bad and last year's team underperformed so we best lower the expectations for the new coach".

 

[Burger]

I guess that goes to the heart of what you expect. If you expect the second tier program UT had become under Fulmer then perhaps it is "unrealistic" to expect a coach to produce a team better than the sum of its parts.

If you expect championship caliber teams then there is nothing unrealistic about expecting him to beat every team on his schedule this year that he has a talent advantage over plus one game against an opponent with roughly the same or slightly more talent.

Dooley failed as head coach and was ultimately and rightly fired. He won 6 games his first year with a schedule just as difficult and with a worse roster. That really isn't debatable. It is a fact of history.

And NO, that is NOT what got UT into the mess it is in. Having high expectations and standards DOES NOT cause failure. Having expectations that are too low... DOES.

The 9 year decline due to the complacency of Fulmer and his supporters is what got the program where it is. This coupled with 2007 and 2009 recruiting classes which were near total busts and sandwiched CPF's lowest rated recruiting class of his career in 2008. Fulmer got lazy and entitled. His recruiting dropped off significantly. Kiffin's sideshow didn't help. Dooley leaves more talent than he inherited and a more disciplined program but did little else of value within the program. His personality, style, and PR choices did not help the program's image or fan/alumni support.


Jones is answering as best he can every problem he's inherited. That does NOT mean you lower the bar for him or expect him to only win the games he should win. The fact that it had become acceptable for Fulmer to beat everyone he "should" have beaten and virtually no one that mattered... was a big part of the problem as well. The "right" coach for UT will beat the teams he is supposed to beat as consistently as Fulmer did but also more than half of the teams with comparable talent and at least occasionally upset more talented teams.

Jones is a first year coach. Fulmer was here for a long time before his dismissal for sucking. First year coaches always struggle because of the changing of everything. Saban only won 6 games at Alabubba in his first year. You can't expect Jones to all the suddenly be caught up with everyone else by week one.

Have you ever played on a team with a coaching change? We will be lucky to be .500 with a team that went 5-7 last year.

 

[sjt18]

Jones is a first year coach. Fulmer was here for a long time before his dismissal for sucking. First year coaches always struggle because of the changing of everything. Saban only won 6 games at Alabubba in his first year. You can't expect Jones to all the suddenly be caught up with everyone else by week one.

He doesn't have to be. He has to manage his roster and coach guys up. Then he has to gameplan effectively to win the games he should and put himself in games against opponents like USCe and Auburn.

No. First year coaches do not always struggle. TAM is a great example. New QB and a number of holes on both sides of the ball. New offensive and defensive systems and a move from the Big 12 to the SEC.

Petrino turned Arkansas around quickly. Saban's first year at Bama wasn't good but he improved LSU immediately.

Have you ever played on a team with a coaching change?

Yes. We improved immediately both in play and wins. The right coach will very often produce immediate results.

We will be lucky to be .500 with a team that went 5-7 last year.

First, that team should have won 9 or 10 games and competed for the East if not the SEC. If the D had just been the same as the year before in production (which should have been the minimum expectation since they returned almost everyone from the 2 deep) then they would have won at least 9. So it isn't like that team failed because of talent. It failed because of coaching and the stupid, fateful decision to go to the 3-4 with Sal.

Second, what possible bearing does that team have on the expectations for Jones if it isn't talent? TAM was 7-6 in the Big 12 the year before Sumlin took over... under a successful former NFL HC.

The right coach will produce teams that are greater than the sum of its parts. He will win games that many think he shouldn't win. Maybe our expectations are different but I firmly believe that a coach than cannot get more than 6 wins out of this team will not be a coach that can ever compete for the SEC.

 

[sjt18]

If I were saying the guy should win 10 games or compete for the SEC then I would understand the push back more. All I am saying is that expecting him to only beat the teams he "should" beat... isn't enough.

 

[Burger]

He doesn't have to be. He has to manage his roster and coach guys up. Then he has to gameplan effectively to win the games he should and put himself in games against opponents like USCe and Auburn.

No. First year coaches do not always struggle. TAM is a great example. New QB and a number of holes on both sides of the ball. New offensive and defensive systems and a move from the Big 12 to the SEC.

Petrino turned Arkansas around quickly. Saban's first year at Bama wasn't good but he improved LSU immediately.

Yes. We improved immediately both in play and wins. The right coach will very often produce immediate results.



First, that team should have won 9 or 10 games and competed for the East if not the SEC. If the D had just been the same as the year before in production (which should have been the minimum expectation since they returned almost everyone from the 2 deep) then they would have won at least 9. So it isn't like that team failed because of talent. It failed because of coaching and the stupid, fateful decision to go to the 3-4 with Sal.

Second, what possible bearing does that team have on the expectations for Jones if it isn't talent? TAM was 7-6 in the Big 12 the year before Sumlin took over... under a successful former NFL HC.

The right coach will produce teams that are greater than the sum of its parts. He will win games that many think he shouldn't win. Maybe our expectations are different but I firmly believe that a coach than cannot get more than 6 wins out of this team will not be a coach that can ever compete for the SEC.

Sherman is a terrible playcaller, but the guy can atleast teach basic football. He wasn't exactly successful as a Packer because he's too conservative. Houston Nutt is also the exact same as Sherman. We don't have many juniors or seniors. We have 3-4 year freshmen who never developed. Dooley downgraded his talent just by not coaching. Go to rivals from '10 to '12 and knock everyone down a star. That's more like our real talent level. Our players got worse over his tenure, not better. We have a quarter full cupboard opposed to an empty one.

We were projected to win 9 games with Bray, Patterson, Hunter, Rivera, and both Da'Rick and Zach Rodgers. We don't have any kind of passing talent except pass-blocking. Neal and Lane had help from a great passing attack last year. As fans, we always overrate our own players. We don't have any passrushers, only one guy who can tackle at linebacker, and a bunch of Teagues in the secondary. Fulmer and Kiffin atleast taught football. Fooley taught losing

Expect growing pains..... We have little talent.

 

[VolsRule]

Oh ****, and so it begins! Unrealistic expectations are what got us in this mess to begin with.

isn't a good coach supposed to add value and win more games than the previous coach?

 

[LWSVOL]

isn't a good coach supposed to add value and win more games than the previous coach?

a good coach has to have talent to begin to win..

see Nick Saban, year one Alabama

See Vince Lombardi tenure with Redskins

See Spurrier early years at Carolina

talent is still the thing that makes coaches great

Butch actually has less talent than Dooley had last year, by far

 

[JohnnyBall]

Speak on brother, I have been saying this.

Dooley is the worst coach EVER and Butch is the best!

But Butch is doing a good job if he wins the same amount Dooley did in his first year.



Makes sense

Is that best coach ever anywhere,at Tennessee ,or just the honeymoon still kicking in?Lets see how he adjusts to an SEC dick punch or two before we knight him..

 

[sjt18]

Sherman is a terrible playcaller, but the guy can atleast teach basic football.

So could Chaney.

He wasn't exactly successful as a Packer because he's too conservative.

Sherman made the playoffs 4 of 6 seasons and had a regular season win percentage of almost .600. Other than the one Super Bowl season, he was more successful than Gruden.

Houston Nutt is also the exact same as Sherman. We don't have many juniors or seniors. We have 3-4 year freshmen who never developed. Dooley downgraded his talent just by not coaching. Go to rivals from '10 to '12 and knock everyone down a star. That's more like our real talent level. Our players got worse over his tenure, not better. We have a quarter full cupboard opposed to an empty one.

You simply have no leg to stand on here. The position coaches Dooley brought in were capable of teaching technique. That's not where the problem was. It was at the Coordinator and HC level. The S&C was actually good.

So no, I reject those excuses.

We were projected to win 9 games with Bray, Patterson, Hunter, Rivera, and both Da'Rick and Zach Rodgers. We don't have any kind of passing talent except pass-blocking. Neal and Lane had help from a great passing attack last year. As fans, we always overrate our own players. We don't have any passrushers, only one guy who can tackle at linebacker, and a bunch of Teagues in the secondary. Fulmer and Kiffin atleast taught football. Fooley taught losing

Expect growing pains..... We have little talent.

Once again, you have absolutely no proof for any of this. The talent is there. You are projecting your subjective opinion on the situation. There are unknowns. But most teams have them right now. Only the elite programs like Bama don't have them. And NOTHING you have said even if true makes the situation worse than the one Dooley walked into... and won 6 games with.

This is NOT a six win football team if Jones is the right guy to take UT to the elite level.

 

[sjt18]

Wilcox and Janceks defenses are very different. Wilcox ran zone, and Jancek runs man. Those are both taught with different techniques. They're totally different schemes. Were lucky that our defense has over majority of the playbook down.

They are NOT totally different schemes. In fact, they are not different very much at all. The playcalling will be different. The philosophy may be different. Jancek may run more man... though that's not what Jones indicated early on. You are WAY blowing this "change" out of proportion.

It's not like every single one of our coaches said our players need a lot of technique work. Wait! They did!!!!

And so has the staff every single year since I have been on this board. If any coaching staff failed to challenge their team's technique during Spring ball... they wouldn't be doing their job.

Your knowledge of football shows when you think Chaney's and Bajakians offenses are similar. Everybody runs the spread buddy. Chaney used deeper routes opposed to Bajakian using shorter routes.

They aren't the same... and they aren't mutually exclusive either. The last time we saw this kind of change we got Cut's "dink and dunk" which was very successful with less skill player talent than this team has... against the SEC.

We also run the read option now. Our receivers have to learn a new route tree, and terminology. The oline has to learn the steps of zone opposed to man on man. The backs have to learn new protection schemes, and new routes.

You act like this is rocket science. It isn't. It isn't ideal but it isn't the monster you seem to think either. A&M went through it last year. Other teams have.

Keep in mind that Jones has to beat out the losing attitude Fooley had on the players. I want you to make a 3 deep depth chart at every position. It has to reflect what we put out there this spring.

No it doesn't. Every team in the SEC will have Fr in their 3 deep including Bama. Most will have Fr in their 2 deep- many of whom are not on campus yet.

AND AGAIN, it isn't like I am suggesting he should win 10 games and compete for the SEC title. I am saying that 6 wins is simply not enough to demonstrate that he's any better than Dooley. It will be the same number of wins with a MUCH better roster to work with.