Butch Has Enough Talent...

[VolBeef88]

the problem for the staff is there are not many playmakers on this roster, if any.. outside of the OL and they rarely do anything with the football

You maybe right Larry. I still don't think we (fans) know what we have or don't have talent wise. I don't think many realize just how disfunctional things were with Dooley and crew. Hell I knew and still had a hard time believing it. Butch has a much tougher job than most realize.
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[Boca Vol]

the problem for the staff is there are not many playmakers on this roster, if any.. outside of the OL and they rarely do anything with the football

:lolabove::lolabove::lolabove::lolabove::lolabove:

We need a couple of Bernard Daffney's on the OL!

 

[99gator]

You maybe right Larry. I still don't think we (fans) know what we have or don't have talent wise. I don't think many realize just how disfunctional things were with Dooley and crew. Hell I knew and still had a hard time believing it. Butch has a much tougher job than most realize.
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to some extent, both sides are true.

yeah, certain parts of the team or individual players are capable of a higher level of play.

but, let me just use a couple of examples here.

what part of the team performed well last season or last couple of seasons?

the passing game was good.

what players were all conference players or are highly regarded by nfl scouts?

the wr's. the offensive line, particularly the tackles (most responsible for pass protection).

on the defensive side of the ball, who garners the most accolades?

the guy who lead the sec in tackles.

basically, and i said this at an earlier time, even with a poor coach like dooley, your best players are your best players. it's not like tennessee has champ bailey at cb, but because dooley was the head coach and sunseri was the defensive coordinator, champ bailey can't cover, can't tackle, can't find the ball in the air, doesn't take proper angles, is slow, etc, etc, etc.

to use some obvious examples to illustrate my point....eric berry was eric berry even though tennessee's defense was poor. you could see he was a player. barry sanders was barry sanders even if the detroit lions were garbage.

the stink of derek dooley didn't mask the obvious level of talent of hunter and patterson. or some of the o-lineman, etc.

so, i do think you have some idea of the talent level

 

[WiseOlVol]

to some extent, both sides are true.
yeah, certain parts of the team or individual players are capable of a higher level of play.
but, let me just use a couple of examples here.
what part of the team performed well last season or last couple of seasons?
the passing game was good.
what players were all conference players or are highly regarded by nfl scouts?
the wr's. the offensive line, particularly the tackles (most responsible for pass protection).
on the defensive side of the ball, who garners the most accolades?
the guy who lead the sec in tackles.
basically, and i said this at an earlier time, even with a poor coach like dooley, your best players are your best players. it's not like tennessee has champ bailey at cb, but because dooley was the head coach and sunseri was the defensive coordinator, champ bailey can't cover, can't tackle, can't find the ball in the air, doesn't take proper angles, is slow, etc, etc, etc.
to use some obvious examples to illustrate my point....eric berry was eric berry even though tennessee's defense was poor. you could see he was a player. barry sanders was barry sanders even if the detroit lions were garbage.
the stink of derek dooley didn't mask the obvious level of talent of hunter and patterson. or some of the o-lineman, etc.
so, i do think you have some idea of the talent level

Florida has had Top 5 recruiting classes going back 10 years. Yet they had the 97th best O in FBS, and the 118th passing attack. There are 124 teams.

 

[99gator]

Florida has had Top 5 recruiting classes going back 10 years. Yet they had the 97th best O in FBS, and the 118th passing attack. There are 124 teams.

you may think you are taking a dig at me, but you are proving my point.

florida's had position coaching changes, head coaching changes, coordinator changes, etc.

yet, the offense hasn't been very good.

why? obviously, there are personnel issues and they missed on a lot of their signees. those issues don't get fixed until you get new personnel. then, that personnel has to hit the weight room and get some experience because they don't usually set the world on fire as freshman.

as an example, marsalis teague had different head coaches, position coaches, and d-coordinators. the problem wasn't the coaches.

there are several teagues still on the roster.

 

[VolBeef88]

to some extent, both sides are true.

yeah, certain parts of the team or individual players are capable of a higher level of play.

but, let me just use a couple of examples here.

what part of the team performed well last season or last couple of seasons?

the passing game was good.

what players were all conference players or are highly regarded by nfl scouts?

the wr's. the offensive line, particularly the tackles (most responsible for pass protection).

on the defensive side of the ball, who garners the most accolades?

the guy who lead the sec in tackles.

basically, and i said this at an earlier time, even with a poor coach like dooley, your best players are your best players. it's not like tennessee has champ bailey at cb, but because dooley was the head coach and sunseri was the defensive coordinator, champ bailey can't cover, can't tackle, can't find the ball in the air, doesn't take proper angles, is slow, etc, etc, etc.

to use some obvious examples to illustrate my point....eric berry was eric berry even though tennessee's defense was poor. you could see he was a player. barry sanders was barry sanders even if the detroit lions were garbage.

the stink of derek dooley didn't mask the obvious level of talent of hunter and patterson. or some of the o-lineman, etc.

so, i do think you have some idea of the talent level

You're in over your head gator. Of course it's easy to see a Champ Bailey. But this is college football and the "almost good enough to be drafted" players by far out number the "will be drafted" players and truly are the strength of any team because they're "good" enough to free up the stars. Those players are whom we have no clear vision.
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[WiseOlVol]

Gator99 --

As a matter of fair disclosure, why don't you paste your incorrect opinions here? The implication of posting others' is that yours have always been correct. They haven't. I don't have time to dig them up. [Do you have a day job?]

I'll admit that I had no idea UT's 2012 D would be the worst since 1893 (nobody could have imagined such utter failure), and that I waited too long (the Mizzou game) to admit DD was over his head in terms of X/Os and game management.
There's a lot of truth in my posts you cherry-picked: (i) UT's offense would be great (statistically it was), (ii) UT would run the ball well (they did, averaging 4.7 ypc to UF's 4.5), (iii) UF was overrated (as Louisville proved, it was).

 

[99gator]

You're in over your head gator. Of course it's easy to see a Champ Bailey. But this is college football and the "almost good enough to be drafted" players by far out number the "will be drafted" players and truly are the strength of any team because they're "good" enough to free up the stars. Those players are what we have no clear vision of.
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i was trying to use obvious examples to prove a point.

clearly, we disagree here. however, i do think you know what you have in several places.

 

[VolBeef88]

i was trying to use obvious examples to prove a point.

clearly, we disagree here. however, i do think you know what you have in several places.

And I was trying to teach you what knowledgeable football fans know, alas I failed. To quote the great philosopher from Texas R. White "you can't fix stupid".
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[Burger]

you may think you are taking a dig at me, but you are proving my point.

florida's had position coaching changes, head coaching changes, coordinator changes, etc.

yet, the offense hasn't been very good.

why? obviously, there are personnel issues and they missed on a lot of their signees. those issues don't get fixed until you get new personnel. then, that personnel has to hit the weight room and get some experience because they don't usually set the world on fire as freshman.

as an example, marsalis teague had different head coaches, position coaches, and d-coordinators. the problem wasn't the coaches.

there are several teagues still on the roster.

Exactly, we have no depth at most positions. Hasn't anyone notice the rate that Butch is filling his skill positions at. We just lost 5 of our best players, and we have no replacement yet. We aren't close to a choice at QB. We will win 6 games, but well be lucky to win more.

 

[LWSVOL]

You maybe right Larry. I still don't think we (fans) know what we have or don't have talent wise. I don't think many realize just how disfunctional things were with Dooley and crew. Hell I knew and still had a hard time believing it. Butch has a much tougher job than most realize.
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agree. staff does realize what they have and how hard the next few years will be. IMO, CBJ has tried to communicate that to fans in a subtle way. Talking about "brick by brick" building of program as an example..

the staff will try to determine a way to win every single game on the schedule. doesn't mean they don't realize that most of them will be extremely difficult due to talent level, experience and depth issues, not to mention another off season of huge change for the players..

 

[GAVol]

You maybe right Larry. I still don't think we (fans) know what we have or don't have talent wise. I don't think many realize just how disfunctional things were with Dooley and crew. Hell I knew and still had a hard time believing it. Butch has a much tougher job than most realize.
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. . . . which is why I think the people talking 7-8 wins on '13 are crazy. I think we had better brace ourselves for some serious dysfunction offensively. You just can't lose that kind of skill position talent AND change the offense and it not look ugly for at least awhile unless one of the QBs turns out to be Johnny Manziel.

I guess the good news is that it will be damn near impossible for the defense to not look improved

 

[VolBeef88]

agree. staff does realize what they have and how hard the next few years will be. IMO, CBJ has tried to communicate that to fans in a subtle way. Talking about "brick by brick" building of program as an example..

the staff will try to determine a way to win every single game on the schedule. doesn't mean they don't realize that most of them will be extremely difficult due to talent level, experience and depth issues, not to mention another off season of huge change for the players..

You are spot on. The problem is our fans (like most others) are to dense to take subtle hints. But yes, the coaches now know what they have.
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[VolBeef88]

. . . . which is why I think the people talking 7-8 wins on '13 are crazy. I think we had better brace ourselves for some serious dysfunction offensively. You just can't lose that kind of skill position talent AND change the offense and it not look ugly for at least awhile unless one of the QBs turns out to be Johnny Manziel.

I guess the good news is that it will be damn near impossible for the defense to not look improved

I agree and that's why I won't put a # of wins that I expect this season. I'm ready to see players know their assignments, line up properly and play with discipline. It's been a long time since we've seen these traits in a UT football team. I think we'll see this with Jones and his staff if history is any kind of indicator.
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[GAVol]

I agree and that's why I won't put a # of wins that I expect this season. I'm ready to see players know their assignments, line up properly and play with discipline. It's been a long time since we've seen these traits in a UT football team. I think we'll see this with Jones and his staff if history is any kind of indicator.
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I threw out 5 wins the other day just because I have no real expectation good or bad in year 1 under anybody.

I only want to see three things . . . a defense that makes the opponent drive the field; an offense that takes care of the ball and can actually stay on the field; special teams that don't have me holding my breath every time the ball goes into the air. Do those three things; let the chips fall where they may and I'll be satisfied.

 

[VolBeef88]

I threw out 5 wins the other day just because I have no real expectation good or bad in year 1 under anybody.

I only want to see three things . . . a defense that makes the opponent drive the field; an offense that takes care of the ball and can actually stay on the field; special teams that don't have me holding my breath every time the ball goes into the air. Do those three things; let the chips fall where they may and I'll be satisfied.

If the team does the things I hope to see, you'll get your wish.
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[GAVol]

If you want to know how goofy year 1 can be, think about this . . . Nick Saban lost to La-Monroe in year 1. Mark Richt wet the bed against bad Auburn and SC teams. Meanwhile, Derek Dooley by all rites would have overachieved with 8 wins if not for two of the screwiest endings ever. None of those scenarios was very indicative of what was to come by year 3 when Bama had a national title, UGA had an SEC Championship and Tennessee held a coaching search.

 

[VolBeef88]

If you want to know how goofy year 1 can be, think about this . . . Nick Saban lost to La-Monroe. Meanwhile, Derek Dooley by all rites would have had 8 wins if not for two of the screwiest endings ever. Neither scenario was very indicative of what was to come.

No doubt. But some fans like the OP have idiotic expectations because they have no clue just how bad things were under Dooley and crew. Like I said earlier, I find it funny that they have much higher expectations for Jones than they did for Dooley after 3 seasons. Oops I guess 2 years since he had a year "zero" haha
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[photovol]

Very irresponsible post....wishing won't make it so! Talent level is among the worst in the SEC...peroid.

 

[sjt18]

We are coming off the worst defense in UT's history and installing a entirely new set of QB and WR's. Let me guess, if he doesn't win will you make a post saying he can't coach as well as you were expecting?

6 wins and a bowl game will be a great start to what I imagine will be an illustrious career for Butch.

Let's forget about all expectations and support the man. Not to steal from Dools or make excuses, but this is Year Zero all over again.

He also returns 15 or so D players who were in the 2-deep as Fr/So two years ago under Wilcox. That D was mid-pack in the SEC in spite of playing a very difficult schedule and relying heavily on underdeveloped and inexperienced players.

On O, he returns an OL that will likely have all 5 starters drafted next spring, two RB's that combined for 1300 yds and around 5 ypc, two QB's with at least a year of development @ UT, and talent at the receiver positions.


I really fail to understand why so many are willing to focus only on what Jones DID NOT inherit while ignoring what he DID inherit in order to give him a pass on this season. This is nowhere CLOSE to "year zero". In fact, this roster is better than either of Dooley's first two.

 

[VolBeef88]

He also returns 15 or so D players who were in the 2-deep as Fr/So two years ago under Wilcox. That D was mid-pack in the SEC in spite of playing a very difficult schedule and relying heavily on underdeveloped and inexperienced players.

On O, he returns an OL that will likely have all 5 starters drafted next spring, two RB's that combined for 1300 yds and around 5 ypc, two QB's with at least a year of development @ UT, and talent at the receiver positions.


I really fail to understand why so many are willing to focus only on what Jones DID NOT inherit while ignoring what he DID inherit in order to give him a pass on this season. This is nowhere CLOSE to "year zero". In fact, this roster is better than either of Dooley's first two.

Still defending your hero even though he is without question the worst coach UT has ever had and it's not even close.
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[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

To quote Titanvolfanforlife ..

" 6 Wins and a Bowl Win is a decent 1st year.

7 Wins and a Bowl win is a good 1st year.

8 Wins and a Bowl Win is a great 1st season."

Thanks for the Cliff's Notes version.
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[Burger]

He also returns 15 or so D players who were in the 2-deep as Fr/So two years ago under Wilcox. That D was mid-pack in the SEC in spite of playing a very difficult schedule and relying heavily on underdeveloped and inexperienced players.

On O, he returns an OL that will likely have all 5 starters drafted next spring, two RB's that combined for 1300 yds and around 5 ypc, two QB's with at least a year of development @ UT, and talent at the receiver positions.


I really fail to understand why so many are willing to focus only on what Jones DID NOT inherit while ignoring what he DID inherit in order to give him a pass on this season. This is nowhere CLOSE to "year zero". In fact, this roster is better than either of Dooley's first two.

Were not running the Wilcox scheme and Chaney is gone. These guys have to learn completely new and different things while other teams are expanding on last year. We are starting a 100 meter race with everyone else getting a head start. We are rebuilding brick by brick. We are starting over and building a new house. Unfortunately it takes a lot of time for demolition of the old building.

I am fine with a 6 win year knowing we are doing it the right way. We don't have table scraps for a 2 and 3 deep right now.

 

[sjt18]

Very irresponsible post....wishing won't make it so! Talent level is among the worst in the SEC...peroid.

Your saying so won't make your statement true either.

The OL is among the best in the SEC. The "talent" on the DL and experience is pretty good as well.



If you think Dooley was satisfactory then you should be satisfied with six wins from Jones with this roster.

Dooley's "year zero" roster included NO returning starting OL's (only one letterman), NO QB's on the roster (as in none), NO RB's that had ever played in anything more that mop up... and only one of those, NO DT's (Joe Ayres even started a game or two), secondary was at least as bad, best DE had ruined knees, LB's had experience but little talent and a walk-on starting at MLB.


Dooley who many here made out to be the Devil incarnate and no one here believes should have gotten more time... won six games against a schedule that was at least as difficult and should have won 7.

I think pretty much all of us agree that Dooley couldn't coach. Right? So if Dooley against a schedule at least as difficult with a much worse roster managed six wins... Why is six reasonable or even "good" for Jones?

IMHO, if Jones only wins six then we could well be looking at Dooley Part Deux.

 

[sjt18]

Were not running the Wilcox scheme and Chaney is gone.

Not Wilcox's scheme exactly but it is the 4-3 and the techniques are the same.

Chaney ran a modified version of the spread alot. There will be some issues but not enough to make 6 wins anything like the ceiling or the "reasonable" expectation.

I am fine with a 6 win year knowing we are doing it the right way. We don't have table scraps for a 2 and 3 deep right now.

This roster should win more than 6 if Jones is the right coach to take UT back to competing for titles. If he wins six then there's no reason to be confident that he's better than Dooley. Dooley's first team looked more competitive than many expected so there's no real solace in that.