Caplan: Never Offered Gruden Close to What He Wanted

#151
#151
Oskie Volum said:
I agree the problems started long ago. And agree that it's one step at a time. Just don't think others understand this concept as shows with the treatment of Dooley.



Last season we were getting blown out by most teams. This yr we were taking them to the wire. Just because improvement wasn't showing in the w/l column doesn't mean it wasn't there. Our recruiting was doing well until all the Gruden and firing of Dooley talk stalled the work being put in. His recruiting was solid considering the situation. If it weren't for the last minute losses of Santos and Peters (hard to blame Dooley) his first class would have been a lot better. Instead he had to scramble to fill spots with bodies that he neede cause the roster was depleted when he arrived.
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I agree we were more competitive with a couple of teams but TN should never be blown out by Vandy nor should it ever be taken down to the wire by teams like Troy and Akron. I perfectly understand the occasional blip but when these things end in one season, it suggest more than an anomaly.
 
#152
#152
Oskie Volum said:
Don't give me this inherited 2 top 10 classes crap. What QB did kiff sign in his first class to replace Boyd's commitment?? U very much know the troubles of kiffs one signing class and how lack of it being successful hurt. Dooley pretty much had no Sr class this past season. Blame I'm all you want for that but frankly makes u a fool.

Sticking the w/l bottomline thinking at this pt in the programs history IMHO is going to continue to keep it down.
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Except for calling the gentlemen a fool you are correct, my friend! I especially like your last sentence! Good grief, some people would not be happy if we end up with a top 20 recruiting class after all we have been through!!!!:crazy:
 
#153
#153
InVOLuntary said:
I agree we were more competitive with a couple of teams but TN should never be blown out by Vandy nor should it ever be taken down to the wire by teams like Troy and Akron. I perfectly understand the occasional blip but when these things end in one season, it suggest more than an anomaly.
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I agree with you to a pt but thinking the Troys of today are the same as the "gimmes" of yesteryear is really not a good thing. With the new spread offenses and the plethora of talent that's able to run it now a days many of these schools frankly are better offensively than they use to be. Remember just a decade or so ago when LA tech was just a team that played the big boys for money and wouldn't do jack against anyone?? Not like that anymore. People need to understand the changes that are going on and stop comparing these times to previous ones. That's the only way IMO we make it right.

Now to Vandy...they beat us like they did at the end of the worst season imaginable. Can't use that as a measuring stick. IMHO by the time Nov came along the Gruden crap had engulfed the program and brought it down to its knees. The firing Dooley stuff was pretty much a done deal. And Bray comes out and puts the game on the shoulders of the D knowing that they couldn't handle that. Say what you want about the D they may have been bad but those guys fought hard for 60 mins. That Vandy game was my final straw on Bray, and proved his pompous attitude to me.
 
#154
#154
GoVols15 said:
Except for calling the gentlemen a fool you are correct, my friend! I especially like your last sentence! Good grief, some people would not be happy if we end up with a top 20 recruiting class after all we have been through!!!!:crazy:
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Ha! Thx. If you have seen some of the discussions he and I have gotten into and see how he approaches them you wouldn't call him a gentleman. If you ever see me refer to someone like that take it as me treating them as they like to treat others. Im not scared to take on a bully with his own medicine. :p

As one of the only people left trying to help bring perspective to Dooley's time here, mainly to try to make sure CBJs doesn't turn into the same, I've been called A LOT worse. Trust me. :hi:
 
#155
#155
Oskie Volum said:
I agree with you to a pt but thinking the Troys of today are the same as the "gimmes" of yesteryear is really not a good thing. With the new spread offenses and the plethora of talent that's able to run it now a days many of these schools frankly are better offensively than they use to be. Remember just a decade or so ago when LA tech was just a team that played the big boys for money and wouldn't do jack against anyone?? Not like that anymore. People need to understand the changes that are going on and stop comparing these times to previous ones. That's the only way IMO we make it right.

Now to Vandy...they beat us like they did at the end of the worst season imaginable. Can't use that as a measuring stick. IMHO by the time Nov came along the Gruden crap had engulfed the program and brought it down to its knees. The firing Dooley stuff was pretty much a done deal. And Bray comes out and puts the game on the shoulders of the D knowing that they couldn't handle that. Say what you want about the D they may have been bad but those guys fought hard for 60 mins. That Vandy game was my final straw on Bray, and proved his pompous attitude to me.
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We'll just have to agree to disagree. I had no confidence Dooley was ever going to get it done. I think after the KY game last year he lost confidence himself. If you believe the story in the Chattanooga paper about his recruiting, I don't think he was putting forth the same effort as he did his first two years. I sincerely hope and pray that CBJ gets it done because if he doesn't we'll be talking about the good old days for a long time.
 
#157
#157
InVOLuntary said:
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I had no confidence Dooley was ever going to get it done. I think after the KY game last year he lost confidence himself. If you believe the story in the Chattanooga paper about his recruiting, I don't think he was putting forth the same effort as he did his first two years. I sincerely hope and pray that CBJ gets it done because if he doesn't we'll be talking about the good old days for a long time.
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Yeah I'm not much to sit and believe 100% of the things written to help feed what people want to believe. I'm not one of these guys that thinks we need to solely focus on the state especially since the talent is lower tier overall. Did the Austin kid from Paris coach have the same perception of Dooley? (seriously I would like to know) I know way to many HS coaches like many on here and many have thier own agenda and attitudes too. So im not putting all faith in what they have to say. Dooley was in on some big time guys out of state and so that shows me he was trying. Did the KY game drain him some...probably. I'm sure many factors like Brays play had to do with it. I'm sure what was said about what he told Hart was different than what was actually said. Remember that was Dooley's 2nd season but his first one under hart. People constantly throwing the stupid.."we got beat by a WR" line while not considering the fact they scored 10, so the D did its job and Bray and the O didn't. Funny how the roles switched this yr...

I'm hoping CBJ does great things too but if this fan base doesn't realize that it has it's faults and can be blamed for this past season then it will never learn and will deserve to continue being miserable.

Just IMHO that's all...
 
#158
#158
Oskie Volum said:
Yeah I'm not much to sit and believe 100% of the things written to help feed what people want to believe. I'm not one of these guys that thinks we need to solely focus on the state especially since the talent is lower tier overall. Did the Austin kid from Paris coach have the same perception of Dooley? (seriously I would like to know) I know way to many HS coaches like many on here and many have thier own agenda and attitudes too. So im not putting all faith in what they have to say. Dooley was in on some big time guys out of state and so that shows me he was trying. Did the KY game drain him some...probably. I'm sure many factors like Brays play had to do with it. I'm sure what was said about what he told Hart was different than what was actually said. Remember that was Dooley's 2nd season but his first one under hart. People constantly throwing the stupid.."we got beat by a WR" line while not considering the fact they scored 10, so the D did its job and Bray and the O didn't. Funny how the roles switched this yr...

I'm hoping CBJ does great things too but if this fan base doesn't realize that it has it's faults and can be blamed for this past season then it will never learn and will deserve to continue being miserable.

Just IMHO that's all...
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I asked MZTERRY (Croom's mom) if she had read the article. At the time I asked she hadn't but reluctantly decided to read it. She responded that she thought had more to do with the players than Dooley. Not sure what thread it was in, I think maybe Kamara's. I think it's important to get recruits families perspective whenyou can.
 
#159
#159
InVOLuntary said:
I asked MZTERRY (Croom's mom) if she had read the article. At the time I asked she hadn't but reluctantly decided to read it. She responded that she thought had more to do with the players than Dooley. Not sure what thread it was in, I think maybe Kamara's. I think it's important to get recruits families perspective whenyou can.
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Yeah I agree. I actually asked around if she had said anything about it but never got a response or missed it. MzT and I pretty cool. She loves her some Dooley. That's why I find it tough to believe it all. It's natural for everyone to have people think differently about you. Could u clear up the more about players than Dooley part??

I'm sure some of my past employees would have different perspectives of me all depending on how we departed ways. Same goes with ex-gfs...though I'd be honest I would pretty much bet the house that 95% of my exs would take me back (barring be married and other barriers even though I have had a married one "reach out" to just say hi before. Oy!))
 
#160
#160
Oskie Volum said:
Yeah I agree. I actually asked around if she had said anything about it but never got a response or missed it. MzT and I pretty cool. She loves her some Dooley. That's why I find it tough to believe it all. It's natural for everyone to have people think differently about you. Could u clear up the more about players than Dooley part??

I'm sure some of my past employees would have different perspectives of me all depending on how we departed ways. Same goes with ex-gfs...though I'd be honest I would pretty much bet the house that 95% of my exs would take me back (barring be married and other barriers even though I have had a married one "reach out" to just say hi before. Oy!))
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I think she was referring to some players in the state thought they should be treated like royalty. Thought they were bigger than the program. You could probably search and find her response. It was only 2-3 weeks ago.
 
#161
#161
VolsRule said:
hart probably went cheap--for $6-7 million, gruden might have been interested
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$6-7 million for a guy that's never been a college football head coach, been out of recruiting for 20+ years, been out of coaching for 4 years, and had a sub .500 record in his last 6 seasons. :crazy:

Hart offered Gruden what he was worth, not what Gruden thought he was worth. If there was an offer at all
 
#163
#163
GreveHaller said:
$6-7 million for a guy that's never been a college football head coach, been out of recruiting for 20+ years, been out of coaching for 4 years, and had a sub .500 record in his last 6 seasons. :crazy:

Hart offered Gruden what he was worth, not what Gruden thought he was worth. If there was an offer at all
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He's about to get it from someone.
 
#165
#165
Oskie Volum said:
Ha! Thx. If you have seen some of the discussions he and I have gotten into and see how he approaches them you wouldn't call him a gentleman. If you ever see me refer to someone like that take it as me treating them as they like to treat others. Im not scared to take on a bully with his own medicine. :p

As one of the only people left trying to help bring perspective to Dooley's time here, mainly to try to make sure CBJs doesn't turn into the same, I've been called A LOT worse. Trust me. :hi:
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I have never called you a fool. You and I disagree on Dooley. You think he was laying a foundation for the future and I think he was falling further and further behind our rivals in recruiting and was not capable of closing the gap. I thought he was dragging our program into oblivion coupling his recruiting regression with horrendous gameday coaching. If you look at my history I backed him fully until the UF game. I even took a wait and see after the debacle at UK though in hindsight when the assistant coaches jumped off the Dooley wagon I should have. I place my loyalty to the University and not with the hired figurehead.
 
#166
#166
thebjd said:
In what manner is the college game more difficult? He won at the highest level, is still young and charismatic and is a national brand. The odds are in the Grudenites favor on this one.
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It isn't more difficult. But the nature of the job is certainly different.

First of all, the talent disparity in the NFL is far less. The draft, the salary cap and the simple fact that there are only 1696 jobs out there contribute greatly to that. Sure, the ability of the GM and staff to evaluate matters, but the playing field is FAR more even. The NFL even uses a scheduling formula to help teams improve on wins.

In college, the talent disparity can be drastic. Sometimes, teams hardly have a chance. Alabama could beat half or more of the teams in D-1 even if the coaching staff literally didn't show up for the game.

In addition to recruiting, college coaches deal with issues such as all the NCAA limitations and the academic/ethical issues associated with students at a particular university. Throw in the boosters, fan tours and other PR crap and you have a second full-time job.

NFL players are more mature men who are playing for their livelihood - not 18-22 year olds who, other than having tremendous athletic talent, are just like all other 18-22 years. And, they act like it.

NFL coaches scheme 24/7 because they can. It seems that JG has a good mind for that, and he is absolutely passionate about it. Obviously, he has had some success at it. But, to simply assume that his skill set directly translates to the collegiate level and that none of the above would be an obstacle for him is either being argumentative for the sake of argument or just obtuse thinking.

MAYBE he would be an amazing recruiter. MAYBE all of the other issues wouldn't be a distraction at all for him. But to simply assume it despite having having no experience to lean on, and further, to insult those unwilling to also assume it, simply discounts your credibility as a reasoning person.
 
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#167
#167
InVOLuntary said:
I think she was referring to some players in the state thought they should be treated like royalty. Thought they were bigger than the program. You could probably search and find her response. It was only 2-3 weeks ago.
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Cool. Thanks. That's what I thought. Ive seen her say stuff like that before. I have no doubt that many kids believe that and Dooley doesn't seem to be the type to play that game. I understand u have to SOME and sure he did SOME, but there is a limit. I'm sure many players, parents, HS coaches, and now handlers take it to a level that is just to much. It came back to bit Dooley in the butt cause he wasn't given enough time to push that out of the system. I'm sure kiffs first class was full of that bs. I'll try to look into it when I can. Thx again. :hi:

thebjd said:
I have never called you a fool. You and I disagree on Dooley. You think he was laying a foundation for the future and I think he was falling further and further behind our rivals in recruiting and was not capable of closing the gap. I thought he was dragging our program into oblivion coupling his recruiting regression with horrendous gameday coaching. If you look at my history I backed him fully until the UF game. I even took a wait and see after the debacle at UK though in hindsight when the assistant coaches jumped off the Dooley wagon I should have. I place my loyalty to the University and not with the hired figurehead.
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My loyalty is to the school as well and I'm not one to give my confidence to just anyone to take care of it. I believe the situation at UT was/is so bad and the majority of fans simply don't/can't see it. IMHO it may look like Dooley was dragging it down but in turn he was turning over old issues and tackling them. Doing his best to fix ALL the problems not just kick them the road. Which has been the MO of the UT AD dept for way way way to long. I've said it many times that I wasn't looking at the Dooley era just as an alum and fan but through my professional eyes. That's why/how I was able to understand and frankly painfully accept all that was going on. I had to stop looking at the w/l column as the measuring stick for success during this time. It wasn't going to be like that forever, but until I felt it was the right time.

Btw - you may or may not have called me a fool Honestly don't remember but you do come at people attacking their opinion instead of debating them. Instead of trying to understand them and civilly agreeing to disagree. Thats the root of the animosity between us, and many of the people I have issues with on here. I don't mind disagreement and frankly enjoy getting different views to help form or better my opinion. Heck to be honest i sometimes through a thought out there just to see what people think and see if its an opinion worth pursuing. There are just good and bad ways to come about it. Ie...the discussion InVoluntary and I had yesterday which I purposely attached above.
 
#169
#169
After listening to him call the bowl game, I AM SO GLAD WE GOT BUTCH!!! I would puke if I had to listen to Gruden anymore than I already do.
 
#171
#171
I think it's a little irresponsible to not consider that Mrs. Gruden may have played a part in all of this. When the wife doesn't want to move, doesn't want the children to have to transplant and readjust, likes the advantages of where she lives, etc, all the money in the world isn't going to budge the family. If Jon were in a bad situation with his job and the family had been taking constant abuse in the media about his performance, I could see money making the decision a little easier.

I believe family comfort and stability played into this a greater amount than the sports entertainment outlets want to talk about. The promise of more money won't make a woman uproot her kids and leave her amenities - I've tried, it doesn't work.
 
#172
#172
GreveHaller said:
they've been saying that since 2005. If he does, a fool and his money are soon parted. Thank God it wasnt us
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We each have our opinion I guess. We'll never know how it would have turned out here. I don't know how he would have coached here but it is my opinion that recruiting is 3/4 of the battle and I am confident he would have had a staff that would have turned many heads and he would have been able to recruit with anybody in college football including Saban.
 
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#173
#173
thebjd said:
Gruden would have been a homerun hire. To think he wouldn't be successful is just dumb.
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There are no absolutes and I mean none. To say he would be successful is just as Dumb. Take away his last year with a team he didnt even build and he's a 50% winning coach or a 50% losing coach depending on how you look at it. Besides that, like many have already posted, it's over. May JG's name never be brought up again it's a mute point.
 
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