CBO declares Ryan's proposal will dramatically increase deficits

#26
#26
Could be a historic moment - Gibbs almost admits he's wrong.

Also interesting is this tidbit

Paying more for health care would be particularly challenging for elderly people with less savings and lower income. However, the proposal specifies that people with suffi- ciently low income would receive an additional federal contribution to a medical sav- ings account that would help them pay for their premiums and out-of-pocket medical spending. The analysis here for a typical 65-year-old does not address the impact of those accounts on the financial burden facing low-income beneficiaries (nor does it consider the effect of lower premium support payments for high-income beneficia- ries). Moreover, because CBO assumed participation of all eligible beneficiaries in the premium support program, the agency did not evaluate the possible effects on partici- pation of those additional features of the proposal.
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#28
#28
utgibbs said:
It increases the deficit of our old people dramatically! :)

The Ryan Budget, as I said from the beginning, is simply wealth redistibution writ large. He is taking money out of granny and granddaddy's pockets in order to line the Welfare-Dads (and deeply inefficient) of private insurers.
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Love this logic. If the government gives you less of someone else's money then they are taking money out of your pockets.

Awesome.
 
#29
#29
utgibbs said:
The CBO is non-partisan.

The Ryan proposal is simply wealth redistribution on a massive scale as the primary source for US budget projection contends.

Health care is not a market. All of the data from the real world demonstrates this.
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This is seriously debateable.
 
#30
#30
Medicare is an ideological joke. How is it that having lived a certain number of years affords someone privileged access to free healthcare?
 
#31
#31
volinbham said:
Could be a historic moment - Gibbs almost admits he's wrong.

Also interesting is this tidbit
Click to expand...

But what does the figure say about out-of-pocket expenses?

Besides, this is just a red herring. The real finding is that the private sector is estimated to be six times less efficient than Medicare.

Quite simply, this is naked class warfare and wealth redistribution.
 
#32
#32
utgibbs said:
Can we see some data on this?
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Chart.jpg


would have taken you 2 seconds on google
 
#33
#33
NEOCON said:
This is seriously debateable.
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It is not debatable. The CBO director is appointed by the Speaker of the House and the Senate Majority Leader and serves a four year term.

The only time the CBO is non-partisan is when the director is appointed by a split legislature. The current director, Elmendorf, was appointed in 2009; Democrats controlled the House and Senate at that point. He is a partisan puppet.
 
#34
#34
therealUT said:
Medicare is an ideological joke. How is it that having lived a certain number of years affords someone privileged access to free healthcare?
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Actually, it's a Universal Human Right for everybody, not just the elderly, of which we are a signatory.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Moreover, the data from the real world and even the CBO states the private sector is highly inefficient relative to the government in providing health care. It's basic stuff: 1. health care is not a market, 2. there is no incentive for efficiency.
 
#36
#36
utgibbs said:
Actually, it's a Universal Human Right for everybody, not just the elderly, of which we are a signatory.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Moreover, the data from the real world and even the CBO states the private sector is highly inefficient relative to the government in providing health care. It's basic stuff: 1. health care is not a market, 2. there is no incentive for efficiency.
Click to expand...

Last time I checked, we were not governed by the UN.

Also, this in no way entitles one, who can afford healthcare, to free healthcare:

Article 25.


  • (1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
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I could also care less about what data from the CBO says.
 
#37
#37
therealUT said:
Medicare is an ideological joke. How is it that having lived a certain number of years affords someone privileged access to free healthcare?
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Duh:

1. Healthcare is a right - we are violating that right daily
2. Healthcare is not a market
3. Big gorillas right outside your backdoor have HC
4. Real world data
5. Redistribution of wealth upwards
6. Simple, progressive, transparent
7. Game, set, match
8. Woodshed

Any questions?
 
#38
#38
utgibbs said:
But what does the figure say about out-of-pocket expenses?

Besides, this is just a red herring. The real finding is that the private sector is estimated to be six times less efficient than Medicare.

Quite simply, this is naked class warfare and wealth redistribution.
Click to expand...


6 times? Again, please show me that data because I certainly didn't see that in the report.
 
#39
#39
utgibbs said:
Link?

This just doesn't jive with a median income of ~ 40K
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right click on the friggin picture or google it.

income has nothing to do with net worth. retired people generally have low incomes for obvious reasons.
 
#40
#40
utgibbs said:
Actually, it's a Universal Human Right for everybody, not just the elderly, of which we are a signatory.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Moreover, the data from the real world and even the CBO states the private sector is highly inefficient relative to the government in providing health care. It's basic stuff: 1. health care is not a market, 2. there is no incentive for efficiency.
Click to expand...

How exactly is healthcare a universal right? Can it be freely obtained or does it flow from nature?

This is the most ridiculous argument. To get healthcare, you have to obtain it from another. If every doctor or health professional refused to provide healthcare is it still a universal right? Do you make them with the force of a gun provide it to another? Is providing a so called "universal right" to another justified by the tyranny over others? I think not.

Universal rights are those that flow from the natural order. You don't obtain freedom, liberty, free speech, or religion from another. Those are universal rights, not healthcare no matter what the UN says.
 
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#41
#41
jdavis675 said:
How exactly is healthcare a universal right? Can it be freely obtained or does it flow from nature?

This is the most ridiculous argument. To get healthcare, you have to obtain it from another. If every doctor or health professional refused to provide healthcare is it still a universal right? Do you force them with the force of a gun to provide it to another?

Universal rights are those that flow from the natural order. You don't obtain freedom, liberty, free speech, or religion from another. Those are universal rights, not healthcare no matter what the UN says.
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Funny how often people forget this.
 
#42
#42
jdavis675 said:
Universal rights are those that flow from the natural order. You don't obtain freedom, liberty, free speech, or religion from another. Those are universal rights, not healthcare no matter what the UN says.
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But it's not my fault I smoked for 30 years and now have lung cancer.

/sarcasm
 
#43
#43
therealUT said:
Last time I checked, we were not governed by the UN.

We signed it.

Also, this in no way entitles one, who can afford healthcare, to free healthcare:

Maybe not, but means testing would probably just cost as much. If you can afford it, go private, and get a nice room. But since an economy is about economizing the choice is obvious.



I could also care less about what data from the CBO says.

And sometimes you have a penchant for not caring about the real world outside the back door. What the CBO has said simply reflects what is actually happening.
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Health care is not a market. The private sector has no incentive for efficiency in delivering health care.
 
#44
#44
utgibbs said:
Health care is not a market. The private sector has no incentive for efficiency in delivering health care.
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to paraphrase Inigo Montoya, "you keep using those words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean."
 
#46
#46
making more money is no incentive for efficiency. makes sense to me. walmart must be extremely inefficient.
 
#47
#47
jdavis675 said:
How exactly is healthcare a universal right? Can it be freely obtained or does it flow from nature?

This is the most ridiculous argument. To get healthcare, you have to obtain it from another. If every doctor or health professional refused to provide healthcare is it still a universal right? Do you make them with the force of a gun provide it to another? Is providing a so called "universal right" to another justified by the tyranny over others? I think not.

Universal rights are those that flow from the natural order. You don't obtain freedom, liberty, free speech, or religion from another. Those are universal rights, not healthcare no matter what the UN says.
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hohenvol raised a good point on this. The "source" for human rights - do they come from the Deity? do they come from the universe at large? Certainly "freedom, liberty, free speech, and religion" are not universal. There are restrictions on all of these.

For me, human beings create universal rights. This is the one and only source. As the signatories on the UDoHR suggest, the vast supermajority of the world's population do believe these are universal rights. :hi: And thus they have the weight of moral authority.
 
#48
#48
utgibbs said:
Last time I checked, we were not governed by the UN.

We signed it.
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we also just conducted a military op in a sovereign country without their knowledge. Some UN doc doesn't really mean what you think it does
 
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