CBO declares Ryan's proposal will dramatically increase deficits

#101
#101
utgibbs said:
This is one of the most remarkably debased posts I've ever seen on VN.

The "economic tyranny" is clear. It is cheaper to go single payer. You are abusing my freedom and my rights. You, sir, are impinging upon my economic freedom in a big way.
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This is the single most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life. In no way are your economic freedoms and rights abused because it cost more for you or anyone else to pay for healthcare than it would under single payer. It may be cheaper to go single payer but it involves multiple layers of coercion which is debased. I'm sorry but government is not a tool of morality or charity. Morality ends where a gun begins. Taking money from one group through force and giving it to another is not charity. Many things can be done to improve both access to and the cost of health care without forcing people into a system that provides terrible care. If you want a preview of single payer go look at the VA and it's health care provision.

If single payer is such a great program, why must it be mandatory for the populace? Shouldn't we all flock to it naturally because it is the panacea to all our problems? Why coerce people to participate if it is "clearly" the answer.

The reality is that in all single payer systems, there is a robust private health insurance market that only the wealthy can access. No person in this country is denied medical care if they go to the ER. Is this ideal? No but it is better than single payer by a long shot.
 
#102
#102
therealUT said:
Keep your hat on and take a visit to India. If you consider what they provide to be "universal health care" in anything other than name only, then I am at a loss for words. The health care situation in India and the lack of access to health care for a large section of the population borders is absolutely astounding. There is a reason that Mother Theresa set up shop in Calcutta; there is a reason that under-staffed hospitals run by nuns dominate the sub-continent; the reason is that the government is not providing anything in the way of health care to the majority of its denizens.

And, now, to the main point: the fact that these countries give lip-service to Universal Healthcare in no way leads to the following conclusion:
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Admittedly, the service is delivered unevenly in both India and China. Yet they do not back away from it, as we have done, with far, far more resources.

See the UN study regarding the supermajority. Although it is disappointing we didn't get the views of Myanmar and North Korea. :hi:
 
#103
#103
jdavis675 said:
This is the single most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life. In no way are your economic freedoms and rights abused because it cost more for you or anyone else to pay for healthcare than it would under single payer. It may be cheaper to go single payer but it involves multiple layers of coercion which is debased. I'm sorry but government is not a tool of morality or charity. Morality ends where a gun begins. Taking money from one group through force and giving it to another is not charity. Many things can be done to improve both access to and the cost of health care without forcing people into a system that provides terrible care. If you want a preview of single payer go look at the VA and it's health care provision.

If single payer is such a great program, why must it be mandatory for the populace? Shouldn't we all flock to it naturally because it is the panacea to all our problems? Why coerce people to participate if it is "clearly" the answer.

The reality is that in all single payer systems, there is a robust private health insurance market that only the wealthy can access. No person in this country is denied medical care if they go to the ER. Is this ideal? No but it is better than single payer by a long shot.
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Your argument debases the notion of freedom. This is elementary stuff; you are proposing lawlessness.

Just to correct a few of your assertions:

1. All of the single payer systems have better health metrics than we enjoy at much less cost.

2. A supermajority have "flocked" to it; polls over long periods of time show a vast majority of Americans (quite smartly) want "Medicare for All." When given all the facts in a citizen's jury, the figure climbs to 80%.
 
#104
#104
utvolpj said:
so the gov't forcing me to buy their product (when I already have a better one now) = economic freedom and individual liberty?
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How can you conclude yours is better now?

Is it cheaper? Is it comprehensive? What are the co-pays? What do your medications cost?

The data says: better health metrics at lower cost, every time all the time.
 
#105
#105
can you think of a something else all americans want which hasn't been implimented? my guess is no. maybe you might want to question your assumptions.
 
#106
#106
utgibbs said:
See the UN study regarding the supermajority.
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No thanks. I have no desire to see a UN study which claims support for a UN Declaration.

On this, I would rather trust the actual egregious human rights abuses I have witnessed in a handful of these countries in which the governments are much more than just complicit in their occurrences.
 
#107
#107
utgibbs said:
How can you conclude yours is better now?

Is it cheaper? Is it comprehensive? What are the co-pays? What do your medications cost?

The data says: better health metrics at lower cost, every time all the time.
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because I've read about the others. Unfortunately under your plan I won't be able to keep it so that means if I ever tear my knee up again I'll be out a good 1-1.5 yrs instead of the 5-6mos I currently enjoy. Cancer? Hoep it's not too expensive to treat or I could be screwed. List goes on

yes, yes, not much, cheap
 
#108
#108
therealUT said:
No thanks. I have no desire to see a UN study which claims support for a UN Declaration.

On this, I would rather trust the actual egregious human rights abuses I have witnessed in a handful of these countries in which the governments are much more than just complicit in their occurrences.
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Better support as to why a supermajority of the human race support the tenets of the UDoHR would be difficult to find.

Thanks. :hi:
 
#109
#109
utvolpj said:
because I've read about the others. Unfortunately under your plan I won't be able to keep it so that means if I ever tear my knee up again I'll be out a good 1-1.5 yrs instead of the 5-6mos I currently enjoy. Cancer? Hoep it's not too expensive to treat or I could be screwed. List goes on

yes, yes, not much, cheap
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My friend's mother who broke her leg in Paris simply would not agree with you.

Neither does the data from the real world.

It's great you have a comprehensive policy. How much are those co-pays again? Not much. :question:
 
#110
#110
my co-worker in Canada would laugh at your friend's mother

$25-100. Like I said, not much when that's all we pay even for surgeries and special procedures
 
#111
#111
utgibbs said:
Your argument debases the notion of freedom. This is elementary stuff; you are proposing lawlessness.

Just to correct a few of your assertions:

1. All of the single payer systems have better health metrics than we enjoy at much less cost.

2. A supermajority have "flocked" to it; polls over long periods of time show a vast majority of Americans (quite smartly) want "Medicare for All." When given all the facts in a citizen's jury, the figure climbs to 80%.
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I am not proposing lawlessness. I propose that with certain reforms the free market will work much better than a single payer system. We haven't had a free market in health care since medicare and medicaid was enacted which coincides directly with the explosion of health care costs.

My notions of freedom focus on individual liberty that rises and falls on the individual's ability to earn their own in life. That in no way debases freedom. You seek to steal the freedom of one group and give it to another through the use of government. Again this is not charity. This does not make you morally superior. Charity is in the realm and hands of private individuals. Your worldview is a danger to freedom because it punishes the productive and rewards the unproductive through the sanction of government. That debases freedom because it reduces everyone to living with restrictions upon their freedom.
 
#112
#112
utvolpj said:
my co-worker in Canada would laugh at your friend's mother

$25-100. Like I said, not much when that's all we pay even for surgeries and special procedures
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My Canadian relatives would laugh at your co-worker, and probably call him / her a "sucker."

I suppose it is who you know. :hi:
 
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