China Thread

The Kuomintang is not going to reunite with China if they win the next election. That’s crazy.

However, I do think they could support harmful (pro China) economic policies that would be negative in the long run.

In any case, it looks like they’re polling third in the presidential election.
 
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Even if, and that's a big if, that is true you of all people would know this is like the socialist/commies taking over the US. How many Chinese nationals have infiltrated Taiwan?
You say "infiltrated" as though they are sneaking in. One China policy... how can you sneak in your own country?

Also, you assume that it is a one way street and the average person in Taiwan has an adversarial opinion of Mainland China when in fact, Taiwan's largest trading partner (imports and exports) is China and there are a significant number of Taiwanese that live and work in Mainland China.

Also, it is far different for China to want to have influence in Taiwan vs Vhina wanting to have influnce here at home. The only way that can happen is if you have traitors amongst us.

Your issue is with these traitors to America, not China.
 
so localized theft/destruction/loss should just be accepted if you gain overall?

I didn't get the impression that in Cuba, for example, the the US companies there improved the life of average Cubans in the least. If fact our presence probably accentuated the difference between those who have and those who have not, and that's the kind of thing that makes for revolutions - particularly of the socialist kind. Coke wanted sugar, and our wealthy saw Cuba as a playground. The The Hotel Nacional in Havana has several montage type pictures in a lounge bordering a garden. The people in the pictures are a mix of Hollywood and Mafia - from Tom Mix to Lansky, Traficante, Anastasia - but all regulars; I forget which Mafia boss built the hotel/casino that still stood next to our hotel. China is probably little different; sure the people putting together expensive Nike shoes probably do a bit better than the average Chinese, but not anything like the few influential Chinese (probably CCP) who rake it in for playing go between.
 
No way a Pro CCP Party would legitimately win. There is no going back
The KMT was on the pathway of moving closer to integrating further with the mainland until 7 or 8 years ago. It doesn't matter either way because time is on China's side. The younger generation is far less hardline against the mainland and if the US stays out of the way, it will be an organic integration anyways.
 
The KMT was on the pathway of moving closer to integrating further with the mainland until 7 or 8 years ago. It doesn't matter either way because time is on China's side. The younger generation is far less hardline against the mainland and if the US stays out of the way, it will be an organic integration anyways.

That would be a serious mistake..and why would Taiwan eventually succumb to the mainland?
And you don't get to use a One China policy on the one side and be against American policy on the other.
 
Even if, and that's a big if, that is true you of all people would know this is like the socialist/commies taking over the US. How many Chinese nationals have infiltrated Taiwan?

There's absolutely no way that the people who went to Taiwan with Chiang Kai‐shek would have any part of reunification with China. If their children have softened, that's truly a shame, and a poor reflection on what Taiwan's educational and societal values have passed along to newer generations. It's almost impossible to believe that Chinese sympathizers could have made that kind of inroad in Taiwan. Of course, I'd never have believed this country could have taken the hard left turn that it has either.
 
That would be a serious mistake..and why would Taiwan eventually succumb to the mainland?
And you don't get to use a One China policy on the one side and be against American policy on the other.
Because of two things:
1. A younger generation far removed from the revolution. Also, In their lifetimes, China isn't the country of mud huts and rice patties. As I said, there is significant travel and trade between the two.\
2. They share the same culture and background that extends further than 1949. You're talking thousands of years. They need to be a people united at some point. Why should we stand in the way of that? Why is it even our business.
 
There's absolutely no way that the people who went to Taiwan with Chiang Kai‐shek would have any part of reunification with China. If their children have softened, that's truly a shame, and a poor reflection on what Taiwan's educational and societal values have passed along to newer generations. It's almost impossible to believe that Chinese sympathizers could have made that kind of inroad in Taiwan. Of course, I'd never have believed this country could have taken the hard left turn that it has either.
You're kidding, right?
I bet their educational system is 10X better than ours with regards to their history, STEM, and biology (knowing the difference between a boy and a girl). Generational changes happen. But your tone leads me to think that you believe Taiwan is regressing socially and on the verge of societal collapse. Even you don't believe that.

Younger people in Taiwan will naturally gravitate to the mainland. That isn't a bad thing or a tragedy.
 
The KMT was on the pathway of moving closer to integrating further with the mainland until 7 or 8 years ago. It doesn't matter either way because time is on China's side. The younger generation is far less hardline against the mainland and if the US stays out of the way, it will be an organic integration anyways.

Unfortunately that makes a lot of sense. It seems that communism often finds ways to weave tentacles that pull the naïve in, and all it takes is for the people of Taiwan to be seduced by the China trade and forget why their elders (probably mostly past) left China in the first place. Lured by honeyed words and favors that will not end well at all if the people of Taiwan give in.
 
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Almost nobody in Taiwan supports unification with the mainland. There is like 1 percent support at the moment. Why are people debating this Russian propagandist?
 
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You're kidding, right?
I bet their educational system is 10X better than ours with regards to their history, STEM, and biology (knowing the difference between a boy and a girl). Generational changes happen. But your tone leads me to think that you believe Taiwan is regressing socially and on the verge of societal collapse. Even you don't believe that.

Younger people in Taiwan will naturally gravitate to the mainland. That isn't a bad thing or a tragedy.

No doubt Taiwan's educational system is superior to our own. You can say that even about India if you consider India really concentrates on the best education for the kids who want it, can achieve it, and will work for it. That doesn't mean, however, that what kids learn in STEM courses cannot be undermined in other courses. I've had a couple of people from Soviet states working for me after the fall of the USSR; they were excellent in math and sciences, but you can bet their other courses were much more about indoctrination than honest portrayal of soviet/socialist life vs that in democracies. We gave up on education years ago when it became immoral to treat gifted students differently from competent students, and competent students differently from those who would never apply themselves to any sort of academic achievement.
 
Unfortunately that makes a lot of sense. It seems that communism often finds ways to weave tentacles that pull the naïve in, and all it takes is for the people of Taiwan to be seduced by the China trade and forget why their elders (probably mostly past) left China in the first place. Lured by honeyed words and favors that will not end well at all if the people of Taiwan give in.
Here you go being blinded by your Cold War biases. I understand... it is called the "communist" party. But in actions and results, China is looking far more like a capitalist country on the fiscal side of the ledger than the USA. And Taiwan and China are closer in terms of economy than the US. And if you want to argue that China's social positions are still authoritarian in many ways, are you aware of how the KMT ran things for all of those years? Or, in a far more concerning example, where have you been the past 3 years or so here in this country? We have a system here that is moving faster towards Mao's vision than China is in many aspects. China had far more severe lockdowns... I get it. But had Gavin Newsom or Whitmer or Cuomo or Joe Biden been given the opportunity, I bet you $1 billion that I don't have that they would have loved to do the same here.

@AM64, you have to realize that our enemies and biggest threat are of the homegrown variety. It's not Russia. It's not the Iranians. It's not the N. Koreans. It's not the Chinese. You enemies are in DC, on your television, on your schoolboards, and voting in your precinct.
 
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No doubt Taiwan's educational system is superior to our own. You can say that even about India if you consider India really concentrates on the best education for the kids who want it, can achieve it, and will work for it. That doesn't mean, however, that what kids learn in STEM courses cannot be undermined in other courses. I've had a couple of people from Soviet states working for me after the fall of the USSR; they were excellent in math and sciences, but you can bet their other courses were much more about indoctrination than honest portrayal of soviet/socialist life vs that in democracies. We gave up on education years ago when it became immoral to treat gifted students differently from competent students, and competent students differently from those who would never apply themselves to any sort of academic achievement.
Modern civilization requires engineers, farmers and skilled laborers. Not history or poli-sci majors.
 
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We have capitulated and simply are so rich that we can afford, for a while, to be the way we are. 50 years from now, we'll be a 3rd world country and the wealth that was once built in this country will be no more except for the elites running the country.
 
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Here you go being blinded by your Cold War biases. I understand... it is called the "communist" party. But in actions and results, China is looking far more like a capitalist country on the fiscal side of the ledger than the USA. And Taiwan and China are closer in terms of economy than the US. And if you want to argue that China's social positions are still authoritarian in many ways, are you aware of how the KMT ran things for all of those years? Or, in a far more concerning example, where have you been the past 3 years or so here in this country? We have a system here that is moving faster towards Moa's vision than China is in many aspects. China had far more severe lockdowns... I get it. But had Gavin Newsom or Whitmer or Cuomo or Joe Biden been given the opportunity, I bet you $1 billion that I don't have that they would have loved to do the same her.

@AM64, you have to realize that our enemies and biggest threat are of the homegrown variety. It's not Russia. It's not the Iranians. It's not the N. Koreans. It's not the Chinese. You enemies are in DC, on your television, on your schoolboards, and voting in your precinct.

I know our enemies are in DC, but who do you think gave them the ideas? When I say tentacles, they are just as easily ideological or imaginary as real inducement.

Sure the KMT had a tight grip on things, and no doubt S Korea was similar for the same reason. You have to first survive to become a truly free country. No doubt some people found that here in our own country in the formative years, and don't forget Reconstruction. However, if you really want to know what it is to force ideology once you have control then you have to look more toward communist countries - Cambodia as a sparkling example. When I was a toddler old we lived in Kimpo, Korea (1947-48), until being moved to Japan when things started getting really serious in Korea. Even then, before the N Koreans overran S Korea in 1950, there were a lot of N Korean infiltrators looking for intelligence and trying to subvert S Koreans to the cause; these things I learned from my parents - it's not what you and people your age even think about; you take far too much for granted.

In a way you are falling foul of your own argument in by seeing no teachable lessons from the Cold War era - that it's a new day and all that is in the past. That's precisely the thought process that allows people in DC or people in Taipei to seduce a free people into forgetting why and how they are free. When you pull down monuments and rename places to remove the newly discovered "shame" that those people represent then you are making it easy to change a lot of history and reshape the present and future in ways that don't reflect the lessons, values, and hopes of the past. Forget the past (by forgetting the lessons of the past or believing yourself to be better than those who made the past), and you are bound to repeat it.
 
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I know our enemies are in DC, but who do you think gave them the ideas?
Then that is a war of information of ideology, values and culture. That isn't a battle using tanks, missiles and warships. Plus, it isn't a way that you direct towards the outsider. That's like you going out and shooting your wife's lover she's having an affair with. Who carries the most blame and responsibility: the outsider or the one that stood there and made a vow to you on the altar? Or, it could be a case that the lover is offering something that you are not. Basically, the source of the problem is an internal problem... whether between husband and wife or in a geopolitical sense, between traitors and "patriots".

When I say tentacles, they are just as easily ideological or imaginary as real inducement.
Again, your issues are with people right here at home. Why are people at home so easily influenced by an outsider? Is it because it is something that you are not offering? Is it because your "teachings" are not believable or valid? Or is it simpy that they are corrupt individuals?

Sure the KMT had a tight grip on things, and no doubt S Korea was similar for the same reason. You have to first survive to become a truly free country.
Is that your final answer? I bet I could think of several examples in history where it didn't take an authoritarian to bring peace. I guarantee you I can... especially not for 40-50 years. Matter of fact, I guarantee I can.


However, if you really want to know what it is to force ideology once you have control then you have to look more toward communist countries - Cambodia as a sparkling example. When I was a toddler old we lived in Kimpo, Korea (1947-48), until being moved to Japan when things started getting really serious in Korea. Even then, before the N Koreans overran S Korea in 1950, there were a lot of N Korean infiltrators looking for intelligence and trying to subvert S Koreans to the cause; these things I learned from my parents - it's not what you and people your age even think about; you take far too much for granted.
I've seen enough in the past 3 years to have a full understanding of what you are talking about.

My only question to you is WTF does Korea have to do with America? Or Taiwan for that matter? The Domino Theory proved to be a false theory. Vietnam and China didn't go conquering lands all over the place. Meanwhile, we spent our blood and treasure on this false theory.

In a way you are falling foul of your own argument in by seeing no teachable lessons from the Cold War era - that it's a new day and all that is in the past.

You yourself in the past few posts had to admit that Taiwan and the United States citizenry have changed since the Cold War. So why are you not able to wrap your mind around the idea that China and Russia could have changed, also? I'm not saying a wholesale change, but certainly it appears that they at least have a fundamental understanding of economics and even entrepreneurship that has surpassed the USA. Why can you not move past your biases and at least open to the idea that Mao's China and Stalin's USSR and different by some measure to the countries they represent today?

Also, what lessons can I learn from the Cold War? That we are still fighting wars and toppling govts that don't agree with our "Western values"? What has that gotten us? Iran, Guatemala, Chile, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan... and many others. We are $30 trillion in debt, hollowed out our industrial base and have sacrificed our domestic infrastructure and society in a fight against commies and Islamic terrorists halfway around the globe. WTF do we have to show for it?

All I see is that our focus on external enemies has come at a price where we have helped to feed a domestic insurgency.

That's precisely the thought process that allows people in DC or people in Taipei to seduce a free people into forgetting why and how they are free. When you pull down monuments and rename places to remove the newly discovered "shame" that those people represent then you are making it easy to change a lot of history and reshape the present and future in ways that don't reflect the lessons, values, and hopes of the past. Forget the past (by forgetting the lessons of the past or believing yourself to be better than those who made the past), and you are bound to repeat it.
Although I am fully against removing monuments and statues, that is the least of our problems. We have lost our fundamental values. The Constitution (mainly the Bill of Rights), the nuclear family, a "real" economy based on "real" products and a sound foreign policy based on diplomacy, commerce and free trade.

These are the American "monuments' and values that you need to worry about... not China or Russia.
 
The KMT was on the pathway of moving closer to integrating further with the mainland until 7 or 8 years ago. It doesn't matter either way because time is on China's side. The younger generation is far less hardline against the mainland and if the US stays out of the way, it will be an organic integration anyways.
Do you think the “younger generation” is encouraged by what they witnessed in Hong Kong when it was returned to China?
 
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The Brits had a trade deficit with China and was being bled of silver, so in order to make up the trade deficit, they started slanging opium.

Opium Wars - Wikipedia

The First Opium War broke out in 1839 between China and Britain and was fought over trading rights (including the right of free trade) and Britain's diplomatic status among Chinese officials. In the eighteenth century, China enjoyed a trade surplus with Europe, trading porcelain, silk, and tea in exchange for silver. By the late 17th century, the British East India Company (EIC) expanded the cultivation of opium in the Bengal Presidency, selling it to private merchants who transported it to China and covertly sold it on to Chinese smugglers.[4] By 1797, the EIC was selling 4,000 chests of opium (each weighing 77 kg) to private merchants per annum.[5]

In earlier centuries, opium was utilised as a medicine with anesthetic qualities, but new Chinese practices of smoking opium recreationally increased demand tremendously and often led to smokers developing addictions. Successive Chinese emperors issued edicts making opium illegal in 1729, 1799, 1814, and 1831, but imports grew as smugglers and colluding officials in China sought profit.[6] Some American merchants entered the trade by smuggling opium from Turkey into China, including Warren Delano Jr., the grandfather of twentieth-century President Franklin D. Roosevelt, and Francis Blackwell Forbes; in American historiography this is sometimes referred to as the Old China Trade.[7] By 1833, the Chinese opium trade soared to 30,000 chests.[5] British and American merchants sent opium to warehouses in the free-trade port of Canton, and sold it to Chinese smugglers.[6][8]

In 1834, the EIC's monopoly on British trade with China ceased, and the opium trade burgeoned. Partly concerned with moral issues over the consumption of opium and partly with the outflow of silver, the Daoguang Emperor charged Governor General Lin Zexu with ending the trade. In 1839, Lin published in Canton an open letter to Queen Victoria requesting her cooperation in halting the opium trade. The letter never reached the Queen.[9] It was later published in The Times as a direct appeal to the British public for their cooperation.[10] An edict from the Daoguang Emperor followed on 18 March,[11] emphasising the serious penalties for opium smuggling that would now apply henceforth. Lin ordered the seizure of all opium in Canton, including that held by foreign governments and trading companies (called factories),[12] and the companies prepared to hand over a token amount to placate him.[13][page needed] Charles Elliot, Chief Superintendent of British Trade in China, arrived 3 days after the expiry of Lin's deadline, as Chinese troops enforced a shutdown and blockade of the factories. The standoff ended after Elliot paid for all the opium on credit from the British government (despite lacking official authority to make the purchase) and handed the 20,000 chests (1,300 metric tons) over to Lin, who had them destroyed at Humen.
You may have seen this:
Drug Trafficking, Politics and Power: The Era of Empires
 
You say "infiltrated" as though they are sneaking in. One China policy... how can you sneak in your own country?

Also, you assume that it is a one way street and the average person in Taiwan has an adversarial opinion of Mainland China when in fact, Taiwan's largest trading partner (imports and exports) is China and there are a significant number of Taiwanese that live and work in Mainland China.

Also, it is far different for China to want to have influence in Taiwan vs Vhina wanting to have influnce here at home. The only way that can happen is if you have traitors amongst us.

Your issue is with these traitors to America, not China.
Less than 1% of the Taiwanese population works in China. How’s that significant? 27 mil Taiwanese and only 163,000 of them work in China and more Taiwanese people live in America than China.
 

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