Chinese spy balloon hovering over Montana

#2,427
#2,427
NorthDallas40 said:
So let’s see. I gotta register a drone that flies over 100 ft but the FAA doesn’t get involved and require registrations, flight plan filing, and coordination for a hobby group to put a ballon up in civilian airliner airspace. Totally sounds legit.
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I've been thinking the same thing. It's pretty incredible when you think about it. Any balloon that could be a menace to air traffic should be required to have an ADS-B transmitter. Pilots would likely see a balloon on clear days, but not all days are clear, and the sun does set every evening in this part of the world. Those guys in IL are pretty irresponsible if their balloon wasn't identifying itself to air traffic controllers and pilots.
 
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#2,428
#2,428
Oh man if that's true about the hobby balloon, that tells the world all it needs to know about the "commander in chief" and the US military brass.
 
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#2,430
#2,430
An F-22 pilot doesn't know what a balloon looks like? or was told to shoot in down anyway? I'm not buying it. The White house story is different than what Sen. Kennedy got in his briefing. I'll take Kennedy's word since he's one of the good guys. They didn't know what these objects were.
 
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#2,437
#2,437
AM64 said:
I've been thinking the same thing. It's pretty incredible when you think about it. Any balloon that could be a menace to air traffic should be required to have an ADS-B transmitter. Pilots would likely see a balloon on clear days, but not all days are clear, and the sun does set every evening in this part of the world. Those guys in IL are pretty irresponsible if their balloon wasn't identifying itself to air traffic controllers and pilots.
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I posted last night that the majority of hobbyist balloons are exempt from FAA regs.

In fact, the pico balloons weigh less than 6 lb. and therefore are exempt from most FAA airspace restrictions, Meadows and Medlin said

Hobby Club’s Missing Balloon Feared Shot Down By USAF | Aviation Week Network
 
#2,438
#2,438
You were saying?

NorthDallas40 said:
Nope. FAA regs I’m pretty sure state if you’re at altitudes above 10k ft you shall have a mode C transponder and be under positive control by ATC.

@SpaceCoastVol ?
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volinbham said:
I posted last night that the majority of hobbyist balloons are exempt from FAA regs.

In fact, the pico balloons weigh less than 6 lb. and therefore are exempt from most FAA airspace restrictions, Meadows and Medlin said

Hobby Club’s Missing Balloon Feared Shot Down By USAF | Aviation Week Network
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#2,439
#2,439
hog88 said:
You were saying?
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I’ll reply to both you and @volinbham that I’m standing pat. I read his link and based on the requirements of size listed it isn’t clear those restrictions would yield a balloon with enough free lift to get to those altitudes. I also found the FAA regs specific to balloons and there are still all kinds of requirements listed for anything getting above 10k Ft MSL.

And it’s asinine to let a 6 lb object get into a jet engine compressor blade needlessly for the sake of hobby.

So no I don’t see anything listed in the info he posted that says it could even get that high.

Edit: additionally from I think one of bham’s links

• Don’t launch (without a prior waiver from the ATC — air traffic control) if your balloon will pass through Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport below 2000 feet (check SkyVector for airspace maps)

They didn’t even bother mentioning class A airspace because you gotta pass thru all the rest to get to it. Where is the ATC waiver? And all of these objects were in class A airspace.

1676650614457.png
 
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#2,440
#2,440
NorthDallas40 said:
I’ll reply to both you and @volinbham that I’m standing pat. I read his link and based on the requirements of size listed it isn’t clear those restrictions would yield a balloon with enough free lift to get to those altitudes. I also found the FAA regs specific to balloons and there are still all kinds of requirements listed for anything getting above 10k Ft MSL.

And it’s asinine to let a 6 lb object get into a jet engine compressor blade needlessly for the sake of hobby.

So no I don’t see anything listed in the info he posted that says it could even get that high.

Edit: additionally from I think one of bham’s links

• Don’t launch (without a prior waiver from the ATC — air traffic control) if your balloon will pass through Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport below 2000 feet (check SkyVector for airspace maps)

They didn’t even bother mentioning class A airspace because you gotta pass thru all the rest to get to it. Where is the ATC waiver? And all of these objects were in class A airspace.

View attachment 536757
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Just won't take the L I see.

How many birds weigh over 6lbs that fly in C and D airspace?
 
#2,441
#2,441
hog88 said:
Just won't take the L I see.

How many birds weigh over 6lbs that fly in C and D airspace?
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Nope I won’t. Show me the ATC waiver. And go google ATC flight rules for class A airspace while you’re at it.

Should we cite each Canadian goose for FAA violations? And a bird strike by one if those causes massive damage to an aircraft. I remember reading a B-52 that took a Canadian goose nose on the radome and pieces of it came into the cockpit
 
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#2,443
#2,443
NorthDallas40 said:
Nope I won’t. Show me the ATC waiver. And go google ATC flight rules for class A airspace while you’re at it.

Should we cite each Canadian goose for FAA violations? And a bird strike by one if those causes massive damage to an aircraft. I remember reading a B-52 that took a Canadian goose nose on the radome and pieces of it came into the cockpit
Click to expand...

Federal Register :: Request Access
 
#2,444
#2,444
NorthDallas40 said:
I’ll reply to both you and @volinbham that I’m standing pat. I read his link and based on the requirements of size listed it isn’t clear those restrictions would yield a balloon with enough free lift to get to those altitudes. I also found the FAA regs specific to balloons and there are still all kinds of requirements listed for anything getting above 10k Ft MSL.

And it’s asinine to let a 6 lb object get into a jet engine compressor blade needlessly for the sake of hobby.

So no I don’t see anything listed in the info he posted that says it could even get that high.

Edit: additionally from I think one of bham’s links

• Don’t launch (without a prior waiver from the ATC — air traffic control) if your balloon will pass through Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport below 2000 feet (check SkyVector for airspace maps)

They didn’t even bother mentioning class A airspace because you gotta pass thru all the rest to get to it. Where is the ATC waiver? And all of these objects were in class A airspace.

View attachment 536757
Click to expand...

I'd suggest you the above reg applies if you are near a particular type of airport ("designated for an airport below 2000 feet" - a non towered airport).

If you read the context of the link it is for high altitude balloons so it is for balloons getting to Class A and it notes the criteria for exemption. Towards the end there is a notification requirement listed but it doesn't require some tracking capability by the FAA.

Now you might argue this shouldn't be the law but it certainly appears to be the law.
 
#2,445
#2,445
hog88 said:
Federal Register :: Request Access
Click to expand...
I also found that page. It isn’t just the Wild West in these things there are still marking, communication, and ATC/FAA notifications requirements.


§ 101.33 Operating limitations.
No person may operate an unmanned free balloon -
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, below 2,000 feet above the surface within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;
(b) At any altitude where there are clouds or obscuring phenomena of more than five-tenths coverage;
(c) At any altitude below 60,000 feet standard pressure altitude where the horizontal visibility is less than five miles;
(d) During the first 1,000 feet of ascent, over a congested area of a city, town, or settlement or an open-air assembly of persons not associated with the operation; or
(e) In such a manner that impact of the balloon, or part thereof including its payload, with the surface creates a hazard to persons or property not associated with the operation.

§ 101.35 Equipment and marking requirements.
(a) No person may operate an unmanned free balloon unless -
(1) It is equipped with at least two payload cut-down systems or devices that operate independently of each other;
(2) At least two methods, systems, devices, or combinations thereof, that function independently of each other, are employed for terminating the flight of the balloon envelope; and
(3) The balloon envelope is equipped with a radar reflective device(s) or material that will present an echo to surface radar operating in the 200 MHz to 2700 MHz frequency range.
The operator shall activate the appropriate devices required by paragraphs (a) (1) and (2) of this section when weather conditions are less than those prescribed for operation under this subpart, or if a malfunction or any other reason makes the further operation hazardous to other air traffic or to persons and property on the surface.
(b) No person may operate an unmanned free balloon below 60,000 feet standard pressure altitude between sunset and sunrise (as corrected to the altitude of operation) unless the balloon and its attachments and payload, whether or not they become separated during the operation, are equipped with lights that are visible for at least 5 miles and have a flash frequency of at least 40, and not more than 100, cycles per minute.
(c) No person may operate an unmanned free balloon that is equipped with a trailing antenna that requires an impact force of more than 50 pounds to break it at any point, unless the antenna has colored pennants or streamers that are attached at not more than 50 foot intervals and that are visible for at least one mile.
(d) No person may operate between sunrise and sunset an unmanned free balloon that is equipped with a suspension device (other than a highly conspicuously colored open parachute) more than 50 feet along, unless the suspension device is colored in alternate bands of high conspicuity colors or has colored pennants or streamers attached which are visible for at least one mile.
(Sec. 6(c), Department of Transportation Act (49 U.S.C. 1655(c)))

§ 101.37 Notice requirements.
(a) Prelaunch notice: Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate an unmanned free balloon unless, within 6 to 24 hours before beginning the operation, he gives the following information to the FAA ATC facility that is nearest to the place of intended operation:
(1) The balloon identification.
(2) The estimated date and time of launching, amended as necessary to remain within plus or minus 30 minutes.
(3) The location of the launching site.
(4) The cruising altitude.
(5) The forecast trajectory and estimated time to cruising altitude or 60,000 feet standard pressure altitude, whichever is lower.
(6) The length and diameter of the balloon, length of the suspension device, weight of the payload, and length of the trailing antenna.
(7) The duration of flight.
(8) The forecast time and location of impact with the surface of the earth.
(b) For solar or cosmic disturbance investigations involving a critical time element, the information in paragraph (a) of this section shall be given within 30 minutes to 24 hours before beginning the operation.
(c) Cancellation notice: If the operation is canceled, the person who intended to conduct the operation shall immediately notify the nearest FAA ATC facility.
(d) Launch notice: Each person operating an unmanned free balloon shall notify the nearest FAA or military ATC facility of the launch time immediately after the balloon is launched.
 
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#2,446
#2,446
NorthDallas40 said:
I also found that page. It isn’t just the Wild West in these things there are still marking, communication, and ATC/FAA notifications requirements.


§ 101.33 Operating limitations.
No person may operate an unmanned free balloon -
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, below 2,000 feet above the surface within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;
(b) At any altitude where there are clouds or obscuring phenomena of more than five-tenths coverage;
(c) At any altitude below 60,000 feet standard pressure altitude where the horizontal visibility is less than five miles;
(d) During the first 1,000 feet of ascent, over a congested area of a city, town, or settlement or an open-air assembly of persons not associated with the operation; or
(e) In such a manner that impact of the balloon, or part thereof including its payload, with the surface creates a hazard to persons or property not associated with the operation.

§ 101.35 Equipment and marking requirements.
(a) No person may operate an unmanned free balloon unless -
(1) It is equipped with at least two payload cut-down systems or devices that operate independently of each other;
(2) At least two methods, systems, devices, or combinations thereof, that function independently of each other, are employed for terminating the flight of the balloon envelope; and
(3) The balloon envelope is equipped with a radar reflective device(s) or material that will present an echo to surface radar operating in the 200 MHz to 2700 MHz frequency range.
The operator shall activate the appropriate devices required by paragraphs (a) (1) and (2) of this section when weather conditions are less than those prescribed for operation under this subpart, or if a malfunction or any other reason makes the further operation hazardous to other air traffic or to persons and property on the surface.
(b) No person may operate an unmanned free balloon below 60,000 feet standard pressure altitude between sunset and sunrise (as corrected to the altitude of operation) unless the balloon and its attachments and payload, whether or not they become separated during the operation, are equipped with lights that are visible for at least 5 miles and have a flash frequency of at least 40, and not more than 100, cycles per minute.
(c) No person may operate an unmanned free balloon that is equipped with a trailing antenna that requires an impact force of more than 50 pounds to break it at any point, unless the antenna has colored pennants or streamers that are attached at not more than 50 foot intervals and that are visible for at least one mile.
(d) No person may operate between sunrise and sunset an unmanned free balloon that is equipped with a suspension device (other than a highly conspicuously colored open parachute) more than 50 feet along, unless the suspension device is colored in alternate bands of high conspicuity colors or has colored pennants or streamers attached which are visible for at least one mile.
(Sec. 6(c), Department of Transportation Act (49 U.S.C. 1655(c)))

§ 101.37 Notice requirements.
(a) Prelaunch notice: Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate an unmanned free balloon unless, within 6 to 24 hours before beginning the operation, he gives the following information to the FAA ATC facility that is nearest to the place of intended operation:
(1) The balloon identification.
(2) The estimated date and time of launching, amended as necessary to remain within plus or minus 30 minutes.
(3) The location of the launching site.
(4) The cruising altitude.
(5) The forecast trajectory and estimated time to cruising altitude or 60,000 feet standard pressure altitude, whichever is lower.
(6) The length and diameter of the balloon, length of the suspension device, weight of the payload, and length of the trailing antenna.
(7) The duration of flight.
(8) The forecast time and location of impact with the surface of the earth.
(b) For solar or cosmic disturbance investigations involving a critical time element, the information in paragraph (a) of this section shall be given within 30 minutes to 24 hours before beginning the operation.
(c) Cancellation notice: If the operation is canceled, the person who intended to conduct the operation shall immediately notify the nearest FAA ATC facility.
(d) Launch notice: Each person operating an unmanned free balloon shall notify the nearest FAA or military ATC facility of the launch time immediately after the balloon is launched.
Click to expand...

Looks like Volger has a bone.
 
#2,447
#2,447
volinbham said:
I'd suggest you the above reg applies if you are near a particular type of airport ("designated for an airport below 2000 feet" - a non towered airport).

If you read the context of the link it is for high altitude balloons so it is for balloons getting to Class A and it notes the criteria for exemption. Towards the end there is a notification requirement listed but it doesn't require some tracking capability by the FAA.

Now you might argue this shouldn't be the law but it certainly appears to be the law.
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Hog posted a page that I’d read before and I posted the relevant paragraphs. I’m fairly certain there are still FAA/ATC coordination requirements as well as transponder requirements. Look at 101.35(3) above.

And if there is actually a void in the regs allowing these things up there after this fiasco I’ll guess we see the heavy hand of the government quickly correct that.
 
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