Climate Change Report

#151
#151
ClearwaterVol said:
What is more worthless than meetings is a total lack of organization and focus.
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are we going to create a new branch of the UN to oversee this stuff? What organization does there need to be? what focus is required? we aren't building one big project to save the world. this will take literally millions of projects, the world over to do this. you going to sit down and try to organize and focus that on a global scale? if you want something done don't give it to the scientists or politicians, give it to the engineers. they are going to be the ones doing the work anyway, everyone else just gets in the way and complicates things.
 
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#152
#152
ClearwaterVol said:
Still gotta do it. We have been listening to the right for years tell us this was going to wreck the economy. It is going to do a lot more than that if we keep on being selfish pricks. My personal opinion is that it will simply create new industries.
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What needs to be done?
 
#153
#153
ClearwaterVol said:
Still gotta do it. We have been listening to the right for years tell us this was going to wreck the economy. It is going to do a lot more than that if we keep on being selfish pricks. My personal opinion is that it will simply create new industries.
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for the rich countries it may not kill the economy but for the poor countries it certainly will. many countries are operating at susitence levels, barely maintaining themselves. Not only do you want to shut down what they do have, so it can be upgraded clean, you also want them to start magically producing some top end tech goods that no one in their country can afford. kinda like a world war glutted economy suddenly being without a government teat.
 
#154
#154
LouderVol said:
for the rich countries it may not kill the economy but for the poor countries it certainly will. many countries are operating at susitence levels, barely maintaining themselves. Not only do you want to shut down what they do have, so it can be upgraded clean, you also want them to start magically producing some top end tech goods that no one in their country can afford. kinda like a world war glutted economy suddenly being without a government teat.
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You know how that works. The 'rich' countries get to pay for the poor ones. It's the New World Order.
 
#156
#156
ClearwaterVol said:
Still gotta do it. We have been listening to the right for years tell us this was going to wreck the economy. It is going to do a lot more than that if we keep on being selfish pricks. My personal opinion is that it will simply create new industries.
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My belief is that global warming is real but naturally occurring, the earth has cooled and warmed how many times throughout millennia? We’re not going to stop it or even slow it down. So instead of spending money on fruitless research on how to stop it and wrecking economies trying we should be researching how to live and thrive with the climates changes.
 
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#157
#157
hog88 said:
My belief is that global warming is real but naturally occurring, the earth has cooled and warmed how many times throughout millennia? We’re not going to stop it or even slow it down. So instead of spending money on fruitless research on how to stop it and wrecking economies trying we should be researching how to live and thrive with the climates changes.
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I am glad you have that belief. Most scientists who are studying the issue disagree.
 
#160
#160
NorthDallas40 said:
I was shocked when I read it but apparently the largest market for SUVs is China? Can’t believe they would be driving Tahoes or Expeditions but that’s what it said.
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I had no idea of that either, and am as surprised as you are.

FWIW, I am not saying that this is an American made problem. It’s a human problem. The danger is just too remote for people to take it seriously.
 
#161
#161
World energy consumption - Wikipedia
Google

how much does a solar panel cost - Google Search

157 500 Twh of energy used a year by the world. numbers I have seen are to cut the carbon by 20-30% to stay where we are today.
5kwh panel = ~$25,000

157 500 000 000 000 000 x .3 =472 500 000 000 000 we need to get rid of (472.5 trillion)

I am going to add a safety number here. adding another 30% to what is needed just to cover inefficiency and losses.
472.5 trillion + (.3x472.5trillion) = 614.25 trillion whs of solar panels needed

a typical home system that I can find a price for at the low end is $25,000 for a 5 kwh system, we need 614.25twh

so

614 250 000 000 000 (614.25trillion)/ 5 000 = 122 850 000 000 (122.85 billion) 5kwh systems needed

122 850 000 000 x 25 000 = 3 071 250 000 000 000 dollars (3.07125 quadrillion dollars) and thats just the panels themselves. you can at least add that to itself, or probably double it to take care of everything else that goes with (support structures, labor, engineering, clearing etc etc)

so anywhere from 3 to 9 QUADRILLION dollars. no problem right?

The world's $80 trillion economy - in one chart

uh oh, the world's gdp is only 80 trillion. so the problem (assuming 3 quadrillion) by some quick math is 37.5 times larger than what the world can afford. put another way if all the world did was produce solar panels it would take 38 years to afford all that was needed.

-now some other factors to weigh in which I did not address
-new tech reduces energy requirements, but this is offset and probably worsened by an ever increasing demand on tech
-other green techs will also decrease the load, but if we are jumping on one cause we won't be able to do anything else. maybe there are more efficient means of producing clean energy, but this was the easiest number to source as far as cost. and solar is available everywhere, where wind, and water production are not
-some of the energy produced already in the world is "green" sourced and wouldn't need to be reduced. How much renewable energy does the world use
*ok just keeping this simple again to save the math, they are saying 25% of energy produced is already green sourced. so just removing 25% from my end number leaves us with only 2.25 Quadrillion dollars of solar panels required. *
-with so much demand and emphasis panels would hopefully get cheaper and more efficient. but supply of the rare earth materials that go into panels would undoubtedly be strained, to say the least.

-forgive the lack of noting the units
-hopefully I got all the numbers right, there are a lot of zeroes floating around so it wouldn't surprise me if my 'back of the napkin' math misplaced one on the way to the key board.
 
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#163
#163
Nothing much matters if you aren't addressing the big problem. If you fractionally reduce energy use and pollution by capita, you are still fighting this:

population-by-country-gapminder+un.png
 
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#164
#164
NorthDallas40 said:
I was shocked when I read it but apparently the largest market for SUVs is China? Can’t believe they would be driving Tahoes or Expeditions but that’s what it said.
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They've got over a billion more people than we do, so China probably uses much more of anything that pollutes than we do. Moving US manufacturing to countries that aren't concerned with pollution doesn't help the world view either.
 
#165
#165
AM64 said:
They've got over a billion more people than we do, so China probably uses much more of anything that pollutes than we do. Moving US manufacturing to countries that aren't concerned with pollution doesn't help the world view either.
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I said it before. the strongest argument for tariffs and US manufacturing is the green one. if you think global warming is an issue you should be banging down Trump's door begging for more tariffs.

at least in the building world, no one has the same/similar standards we do on a consistent basis. even Europe. not only do our manufacturers have to produce the materials as green as possible, where the raw materials come from is looked at as well. Europe doesn't have that protection. and then you add shipping on top of it.
 
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#166
#166
LouderVol said:
I said it before. the strongest argument for tariffs and US manufacturing is the green one. if you think global warming is an issue you should be banging down Trump's door begging for more tariffs.

at least in the building world, no one has the same/similar standards we do on a consistent basis. even Europe. not only do our manufacturers have to produce the materials as green as possible, where the raw materials come from is looked at as well. Europe doesn't have that protection. and then you add shipping on top of it.
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Tariffs would probably be more wasteful because tariffs are a central planner's tool to incentivize the less efficient as opposed to more efficient. When we have to build greenhouses to grow our bananas, the result would be more pollution and more resources used inefficiently. It's why centrall planned, socialist countries were the worst transgressors of the environment. See the USSR, China, Venezuela, etc.
 
#169
#169
midnight orange said:
Tariffs would probably be more wasteful because tariffs are a central planner's tool to incentivize the less efficient as opposed to more efficient. When we have to build greenhouses to grow our bananas, the result would be more pollution and more resources used inefficiently. It's why centrall planned, socialist countries were the worst transgressors of the environment. See the USSR, China, Venezuela, etc.
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yet the solution to the climate change is extreme central planning.

also in your instance it is worse upfront to build a greenhouse and then get bananas growing. but you have to remember if we don't we are importing every year we bring in bananas (or whatever). the green house stuff goes away. and its not like where we get whatever resource is going to raise it responsibly. especially if you consider the pattern in south america to bulldoze whole sections of rainforest to grow crops.

in our case the central planning is already there. the regulations and rules are in place. it wouldn't be an increase here to do more of it ourselves. but to implement it over there would take a lot.
 
#171
#171
LouderVol said:
yet the solution to the climate change is extreme central planning.
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Govt cant even sync the damn traffic lights. What makes one so sure that it could solve a 1.6 c global temperature increase? Also central planning killed 200+ million people last century, so it's got that going for it.

LouderVol said:
also in your instance it is worse to build a greenhouse and then get bananas growing. but you have to remember if we don't we are importing every year we bring in bananas (or whatever). the green house stuff goes away. and its not like where we get whatever resource is going to raise it responsibly. especially if you consider the pattern in south america to bulldoze whole sections of rainforest to grow crops.
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Why is importing such a boogeyman with planners? We would be poorer because we have to build, maintain, forecast the correct square footage of greenhouses to demand, insure them, acquire land and lease/ purchase land, etc. Or we could just order a container ship of bananas and put the savings towards better uses. Are you saying that comparative advantage is bunk? We also bulldozed the Mississippi delta because we needed the timber, food and cotton just like south America is doing now.

LouderVol said:
in our case the central planning is already there. the regulations and rules are in place. it wouldn't be an increase here to do more of it ourselves. but to implement it over there would take a lot.
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So double down on central planning over here since there are regulations over there? I shouldn't be surprised after Obama but it always amazes me of the cult-like, religious reverence these scumbag politicians receive.
 
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#173
#173
Does Al Gore still own multiple yachts and a mansion that consumes 21x the energy of an average American household?
 
#174
#174
0nelilreb said:
Sure we can . Let’s start by discussing how many paper , styrofoam , plastic cups/ plates / bowls along with plastic wrap to cover left overs you used or seen used this past weekend instead of using regular ones and washing them . Did you do your part ? Did you recommend others do their part? Now that we got thanksgiving outta the way , how many presents are you and your family going to wrap with paper this year ? How many families are you going to encourage not to do that ? It’s easy to talk about doing something .
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You use paper plates and Styrofoam cups at Thanksgiving?
 
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