Congress Criminal Referral Clinton, Comey, McCabe, Lynch, Strzok, and Page to DOJ

#526
#526
Mick said:
From the link he investigates what Sessions tell him to. If you are not a believer in the fisa abuse, why are you so hostile? Don't see you being that way with the one that do say collusion proven false and obstruction proven false. Why is that?
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I'm simply asking you to back up claims you make. I seem to recall you getting hostile when anyone says the Steele dossier has been proven false or discredited.
 
#527
#527
volinbham said:
I'm simply asking you to back up claims you make. I seem to recall you getting hostile when anyone says the Steele dossier has been proven false.
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When the gang of 8 saw the documents that lead to the FISA warrant against Carter Page and said they did not see anything improper done then that leads me to believe that there was not any FISA abuse. You can wait on the report or think for yourself.

I did say they were full of it and they were but you were nowhere to be found. You must really like talking to me.
 
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#528
#528
Mick said:
When the gang of 8 saw the documents that lead to the FISA warrant against Carter Page and said they did not see anything improper done then that leads me to believe that there was not any FISA abuse. You can wait on the report or think for yourself.
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So you have proven it false?

A lot easier to admit you misspoke but hey whatever floats your boat.
 
#535
#535
Mick said:
What do you think about the Obstruction allegations or the steele dossier or the collusion? I can find your post on the matters.
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1) Obstruction? Not much of anything there.
2) Steele dossier? Bunch of Russian misinformation and other crap. Not much of value.
3) Collusion? Nothing material here.

What do we know on these things?

1) so far all anyone can point to is Comey firing but plenty of reason to fire him (we'll hear more on Thursday) and within the purview of POTUS coupled with Rosenstein detailed recommendation. Nothing else to point to.

2) Steele dossier? FBI unable to confirm, multiple Russian government sources, compiled with a person determined to keep Trump out of office and under employ of opposition candidate.

3) Collusion? Almost 2 years looking into and nothing other than Trump tower "attempt". Even Schiff doesn't make any specific accusations.

Comey, Mueller and members of the vaunted Gang of 8 have all said Trump is not a target in the investigation.

Using the standard of proof of IMO - I'd say Trump is in the clear.
 
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#536
#536
volinbham said:
1) Obstruction? Not much of anything there.
2) Steele dossier? Bunch of Russian misinformation and other crap. Not much of value.
3) Collusion? Nothing material here.

What do we know on these things?

1) so far all anyone can point to is Comey firing but plenty of reason to fire him (we'll hear more on Thursday) and within the purview of POTUS coupled with Rosenstein detailed recommendation. Nothing else to point to.

2) Steele dossier? FBI unable to confirm, multiple Russian government sources, compiled with a person determined to keep Trump out of office and under employ of opposition candidate.

3) Collusion? Almost 2 years looking into and nothing other than Trump tower "attempt". Even Schiff doesn't make any specific accusations.

Comey, Mueller and members of the vaunted Gang of 8 have all said Trump is not a target in the investigation.

Using the standard of proof of IMO - I'd say Trump is in the clear.
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Obstruction: firing Comey is just a small part of it. The draft of the cause, Trump asking him to let the flynn thing go, saying he was fired for the russia thing, the dictation of the Jr. statement about the the Trump tower meeting. There is more there than you want to acknowledge.

Has there been anything in the steele dossier proven false?

Collusion: Trump tower meeting you know the players, and the purpose. The attempt is evident from Russia the bait was taken by the campaign manager, son, and son-in-law. This campaign had more russian liked contacts than Gorbachev.
 
#537
#537
Mick said:
Obstruction: firing Comey is just a small part of it. The draft of the cause, Trump asking him to let the flynn thing go, saying he was fired for the russia thing, the dictation of the Jr. statement about the the Trump tower meeting. There is more there than you want to acknowledge.

Has there been anything in the steele dossier proven false?

Collusion: Trump tower meeting you know the players, and the purpose. The attempt is evident from Russia the bait was taken by the campaign manager, son, and son-in-law. This campaign had more russian liked contacts than Gorbachev.
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interesting how your standards shift on proving things false.

The Flynn thing - Comey testified a couple interesting things: 1) he never felt Trump was ordering him to do anything, he never felt pressured and it was never brought up again. 2) the context that the lying charges against Flynn were suspect (per Comey's testimony the agents didn't think Flynn was lying). The WH knew all this (as documents have shown) at the time of Trump's request. It was a "come on man, could you stop jerking him around, he's a good man" comment explaining why Comey didn't take it as an order or even serious request.

A few facts have been proven wrong - some names and dates. More importantly, the FBI has not been able to verify the information. So does it need to be proven false to be considered not of material use?

How can collusion occur if no information was provided? Can you show me anywhere that documents material information was provided and used in the election? Besides, most of the collusion accusations center on the Wikileaks/DNC stuff which was not connected to the TT meeting (at least I haven't seen anything linking them).

Also you are ignoring the Comey, Mueller and members of Gang of 8 comments saying Trump is the not the target of the investigation. Everything in the 3 areas above has been known for quite some time and predates comments from those in the know that Trump is not the target.

Look, I won't convince you but maybe you see how IMO proven is a world different from actually proven.
 
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#540
#540
Mick said:
What do you think about the Obstruction allegations or the steele dossier or the collusion? I can find your post on the matters.
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Find them. I've always stated my opinion while never claiming anything proven one way or the other.
 
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#543
#543
volinbham said:
interesting how your standards shift on proving things false.

The Flynn thing - Comey testified a couple interesting things: 1) he never felt Trump was ordering him to do anything, he never felt pressured and it was never brought up again. 2) the context that the lying charges against Flynn were suspect (per Comey's testimony the agents didn't think Flynn was lying). The WH knew all this (as documents have shown) at the time of Trump's request. It was a "come on man, could you stop jerking him around, he's a good man" comment explaining why Comey didn't take it as an order or even serious request.

A few facts have been proven wrong - some names and dates. More importantly, the FBI has not been able to verify the information. So does it need to be proven false to be considered not of material use?

How can collusion occur if no information was provided? Can you show me anywhere that documents material information was provided and used in the election? Besides, most of the collusion accusations center on the Wikileaks/DNC stuff which was not connected to the TT meeting (at least I haven't seen anything linking them).

Also you are ignoring the Comey, Mueller and members of Gang of 8 comments saying Trump is the not the target of the investigation. Everything in the 3 areas above has been known for quite some time and predates comments from those in the know that Trump is not the target.

Look, I won't convince you but maybe you see how IMO proven is a world different from actually proven.
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I hope to see you as a staunch advocate against false claims in the future. Im not about to rehash a years worth of statements that you can find in the Trumpputin thread.

First bold. Those are your opinion statements. The act by Trump to ask him to drop the Flynn investigation was improper. It didn't matter if Comey felt pressure. The agents may not have felt Flynn was lying but he was charged and plead guilty.

Second. What has been proven wrong in the Steele Dossier? You completely glossed over that with. The dossier is not evidence and never was or will be. Yes there are thing in it that may not be able to be proven but that does not constitute proven false just unverifiable.

Collusion is not a crime but conspiring with know Russians to get dirt on Hillary is. It would be pretty myopic of you to think the people involved in the meeting didn't know it was wrong to meet with Russian agents and even more so to think Trump didn't know about it. (Trump would be extremely incompetent not to know what his campaign manager, son, and son-in-law were doing on behalf of the campaign.)

Time for you to live up to your same standards.
 
#544
#544
Orange_Crush said:
Find them. I've always ststef my opinion while never claiming anything proven.
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What kind of statement would you use? Russian hoax? Russian narrative, Debunked, False claims, Dead. I have pushed you on those claims and you defended them not as opinions but as truths or insult the people that criticize those claims made by others.
 
#545
#545
Mick said:
What kind of statement would you use? Russian hoax? Russian narrative, Debunked, False claims, Dead. I have pushed you on those claims and you defended them not as opinions but as truths or insult the people that criticize those claims made by others.
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Quote them. I don;t remember ever using that kind of vocabulary, and you're just throwing out hypotheticals for me to defend against. That's ridiculous.


You sure do seem sensitive when all I did was point out the difference between proof and opinion. I'm perfectly comfortable with the difference between my opinion and actual proof. I think I've been very careful to post as such, even following up most posts in conversation with things like, "I'm content to wait and see..."


I say buck up, and stop being so defensive. If the difference between your opinion and facts is that much of a surprise, it's on you, not me.
 
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#546
#546
Orange_Crush said:
Quote them. I don;t remember ever using that kind of vocabulary, and you're just throwing out hypotheticals for me to defend against. That's ridiculous.


You sure do seem sensitive when all I did was point out the difference between proof and opinion. I'm perfectly comfortable with the difference between my opinion and actual proof. I think I've been very careful to post as such, even following up most posts in conversation with things like, "I'm content to wait and see..."


I say buck up, and stop being so defensive. If the difference between your opinion and facts is that much of a surprise, it's on you, not me.
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He’s a sensitive guy 😂
 
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#547
#547
Orange_Crush said:
Quote them. I don;t remember ever using that kind of vocabulary, and you're just throwing out hypotheticals for me to defend against. That's ridiculous.


You sure do seem sensitive when all I did was point out the difference between proof and opinion. I'm perfectly comfortable with the difference between my opinion and actual proof. I think I've been very careful to post as such, even following up most posts in conversation with things like, "I'm content to wait and see..."


I say buck up, and stop being so defensive. If the difference between your opinion and facts is that much of a surprise, it's on you, not me.
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We have gotten along as of late and I would like to keep it that way. It's difficult to keep people straight when the one on one does not exist. When anyone that actually wants to have a conversation or talk thing through is continually interrupted by others. The group mentality is always difficult to defend against which makes decency almost impossible. Do you understand my perspective on the matter? There are more pro-Trumper that have an opinion on everything and everyone than they are people willing to engage in civil conversations.
 
#548
#548
Mick said:
We have gotten along as of late and I would like to keep it that way. It's difficult to keep people straight when the one on one does not exist. When anyone that actually wants to have a conversation or talk thing through is continually interrupted by others. The group mentality is always difficult to defend against which makes decency almost impossible. Do you understand my perspective on the matter? There are more pro-Trumper that have an opinion on everything and everyone than they are people willing to engage in civil conversations.
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I completely understand, and there are no hard feelings here. There never are. Ever for me here.
 
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#550
#550
Mick said:
I hope to see you as a staunch advocate against false claims in the future. Im not about to rehash a years worth of statements that you can find in the Trumpputin thread.

First bold. Those are your opinion statements. The act by Trump to ask him to drop the Flynn investigation was improper. It didn't matter if Comey felt pressure. The agents may not have felt Flynn was lying but he was charged and plead guilty.

Second. What has been proven wrong in the Steele Dossier? You completely glossed over that with. The dossier is not evidence and never was or will be. Yes there are thing in it that may not be able to be proven but that does not constitute proven false just unverifiable.

Collusion is not a crime but conspiring with know Russians to get dirt on Hillary is. It would be pretty myopic of you to think the people involved in the meeting didn't know it was wrong to meet with Russian agents and even more so to think Trump didn't know about it. (Trump would be extremely incompetent not to know what his campaign manager, son, and son-in-law were doing on behalf of the campaign.)

Time for you to live up to your same standards.
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What standards am I not living up to?

I've stated a series of opinions formed on some facts.

I haven't made definitive statements claiming 1) obstruction of justice has been proven false, 2) the Steele dossier has been proven false, 3) the claims of collusion have been proven false.

As for what has been proven false in the Steele dossier there are some claims of meetings on particular dates that have been shown not possible since the person was in an entirely different country at the time. Most of it simply hasn't been confirmed.
 
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