Could the next 2 games decide Manning vs Brady debate?

#176
#176
99gator said:
i am not going to quote every post regarding this, but the reason manning takes heat for the playoffs is......

1. he has a losing record.

2. the amount of times that his team entered the postseason with the best record in the afc, sometimes the best record in the nfl and were 1 and done in the playoffs. not in the afc title game. not in the super bowl. homefield advantage and best record in the conference and lost the first playoff game.

that's the main reason he catches hell. as others have said, every player has their forgettable moments. 5 times, manning was on a team that won 12 games or more and was 1 and done. it's inexplicable.

one of the main misconceptions is that brady and the patriots have been manning's nemesis. as others have said, this is only their 4th meeting in the playoffs and manning has a win in the 3 games that have already been played. manning is now participating in the playoffs for the 13th different season.
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the No. 1 seed? Last year Denver was, and I know Indy was once or twice--but 12 wins doesn't automatically get you a number one seed. And by the way, how many gator qbs have succeeded in the NFL? That's what I thought--ZERO!
 
#177
#177
The fact is, Manning took a lot of Indy teams to the playoffs that only had one thing going for them, really--Manning and the passing game. They rarely had a very good defense or running game--it was all the passing game, and it's hard to go all the way when you are one dimensional. The year Indy lost to Pittsburgh at Indy was a gag job--but the fact is while Indy made the playoffs every year, they weren't a great team. You take Manning off of ALL those Indy teams and replace him with just about any QB, and they don't even make the playoffs much less win a Super Bowl. And let's face it, Brady has played with the best coach in the modern NFL.
 
#178
#178
armchair said:
The fact is, Manning took a lot of Indy teams to the playoffs that only had one thing going for them, really--Manning and the passing game. They rarely had a very good defense or running game--it was all the passing game, and it's hard to go all the way when you are one dimensional. The year Indy lost to Pittsburgh at Indy was a gag job--but the fact is while Indy made the playoffs every year, they weren't a great team. You take Manning off of ALL those Indy teams and replace him with just about any QB, and they don't even make the playoffs much less win a Super Bowl. And let's face it, Brady has played with the best coach in the modern NFL.
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99% of this isn't true.
 
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#180
#180
VolFan31 said:
Yes he had a HOF WR. His name is Troy Brown and he was their leading receiver. Tom Brady's job that year was to just hand the ball off and not screw up if he has to make a pass. Just let the defense and the rushing attack win the game.



As much as it pains me to say this Brady is a great QB. My argument is that he should not be considered better then Peyton. All of Brady's championships were won with a team that was all around talented not just him.

Patriots Championships

2001 Offense - 6th in scoring, 22nd in passing yards, 13th in rushing yards
Defense - 6th in points allowed, 8th in turnovers forced
2003 Offense - 12th in scoring, 9th in passing yards, 27th in rushing yards
Defense - 1st in points allowed, 2nd in turnovers forced
2004 Offense - 4th in scoring, 11th in passing yards, 7th in rushing yards
Defense - 2nd in points allowed, 3rd in turnovers forced

So as you can see at the very best you can say his championship teams were balanced and it would be a lot easier to argue that they carried him, then it would be to argue that he carried his team. All 3 championship teams were ranked higher in defense then passing. In 2 of his 3 championships they were ranked higher in both rushing and defense then passing. The 1 season they were ranked higher passing then rushing, they had the #1 defense.

As far as the rest of your argument, other then the 3 championships, his team lost in the playoffs. When Manning carries his team and does this it is called a choke. When Brady does this with much more balanced teams and the guy considered to be the best coach in the league, it is considered an achievement? Since he lost his defense, rushing attack and tape collection he has yet to win another superbowl.
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So you're saying Troy Brown is even in the same universe as Marvin Harrison or Reggie Wayne? Also I seriously doubt Brown makes it into the Hall of Fame. Get real.

Brady has been to 2 more super bowls since their last win. So whats Peyton's excuse for not going to the SB last year with a better and more balanced team than he had in Indy?

So basically the only reason Tom Brady has his rings are because of his team and the only reason Peyton has a ring is because of him.
 
#181
#181
Its all about perception.

Last year Denver loses in double OT at home to the Ravens and it's evidence he's a choker (regardless of the fact that Baltimore gets a miracle play to send it to OT).

The next week the Pats lose at home to the same Raven team in regulation and Brady plays worse than Manning did but no one says crap about Brady choking.

It shows that it's not about actual performance or team outcomes - it's about a perception and evidence that supports the perception is paid attention to while evidence counter to the perception is ignored.

In the end, it's hard to argue which is the better QB and they are both among the best ever (Top 5).
 
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#182
#182
To me it was over when I saw how each team did with their qb being hurt and out for the season. Pats got 10 wins and didn't miss a beat, colts got 2 wins and looked like crap. what manning could have done with Belecheat and NE would have been amazing. Plus we don't know how many of their Super bowls were won by cheating.
 
#183
#183
LocoVol said:
To me it was over when I saw how each team did with their qb being hurt and out for the season. Pats got 10 wins and didn't miss a beat, colts got 2 wins and looked like crap. what manning could have done with Belecheat and NE would have been amazing. Plus we don't know how many of their Super bowls were won by cheating.
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this is a poor comparison.

all it says is the backup qb for peyton manning sucked something fierce.

the colts drafted andrew luck and immediately went 11-5 and 11-5.
 
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#184
#184
Matt Cassel has done what? Its a very good comparison except hes a vol which you don't like. One is a system qb and it shows the system works. The other is the system.

He is 32-36 w-l and 93-66 td to int. So he really is just a great qb I guess. lol He had one other good season and for the most part never touched the ball at USC. it is easy to see which one meant more to their team.

Plus great teams win super bowls. Great players set records and have stats among the greatest of all time. Both Brady and Manning do. Mannings just a bit better and repeated his success with a whole new team and coach.
 
#185
#185
bleedorange0037 said:
It's the same tired nonsense that everyone who incessantly kisses Manning's feet says. He's 100% responsible for all their successes and 0% responsible for the failures.
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I'm sure the extreme reverse applies for you.
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#186
#186
butchna said:
I'm sure the extreme reverse applies for you.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Not at all. It just irritates me how people act like Manning deserves no blame for his teams consistently losing important games. There are people who try to act like Manning turns in a first-rate performance every time, only to be sabotaged by his teammates poor play. After 15+ years and various supporting casts, it's happened at every stop. At some point, you either have to recognize that he's partly responsible, or try to make argument that he is the single unluckiest person in the history of football due to the fact that from college all the way through a 15 year NFL career he was always teamed up with guys who laid down when it mattered most.
 
#187
#187
bleedorange0037 said:
Not at all. It just irritates me how people act like Manning deserves no blame for his teams consistently losing important games. There are people who try to act like Manning turns in a first-rate performance every time, only to be sabotaged by his teammates poor play. After 15+ years and various supporting casts, it's happened at every stop. At some point, you either have to recognize that he's partly responsible, or try to make argument that he is the single unluckiest person in the history of football due to the fact that from college all the way through a 15 year NFL career he was always teamed up with guys who laid down when it mattered most.
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I'm the biggest Peyton fan out there bar none, but I fault him for the majority of his one and outs...that's when you're supposed to turn it up and especially in the Phillip Rivers-less loss to the Chargers he choked...but people who worship at the feet of Tom Brady miss the boat...it wasn't until the third and final Super Bowl that Brady donned the franchise QB mantle...he was a high performing game manager until then...and since becoming a star...he hasn't won the ultimate game...system argument?
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#188
#188
LocoVol said:
Matt Cassel has done what? Its a very good comparison except hes a vol which you don't like. One is a system qb and it shows the system works. The other is the system.

He is 32-36 w-l and 93-66 td to int. So he really is just a great qb I guess. lol He had one other good season and for the most part never touched the ball at USC. it is easy to see which one meant more to their team.

Plus great teams win super bowls. Great players set records and have stats among the greatest of all time. Both Brady and Manning do. Mannings just a bit better and repeated his success with a whole new team and coach.
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i understand what you are saying and i am not going to continue to beat the horse.

all i am saying is that when you are talking about "greatest of all time", you get really picky and you look to find any flaw you can, no matter how small.

well, peyton's got one.

i have not looked at the san diego-denver playoff thread in the nfl forum, but i am willing to bet heavily there were people anticipating denver to choke that game away. for whatever reason, it has happened. since it has happened throughout his career, i don't think it can be classified as a fluke.

i can't explain why eli manning has performed better in the playoffs than peyton manning. i can't explain why eli manning has a better passer rating in the playoffs than the regular season. i can't explain why he has a higher td to int ratio in the playoffs than the regular season. i can't tell you why down a score with little time in the 4th quarter in two super bowls, eli took his team down the field for the winning score. was luck involved? everyone will remember that one catch on the side of the helmet forever. but, it happened. i can't explain why.

and, by the same token, i can't explain peyton's postseason career. but, it's a factor. and you can't make excuses for it, because you don't make excuses for a player who is the "greatest of all time"
 
#189
#189
butchna said:
I'm the biggest Peyton fan out there bar none, but I fault him for the majority of his one and outs...that's when you're supposed to turn it up and especially in the Phillip Rivers-less loss to the Chargers he choked...but people who worship at the feet of Tom Brady miss the boat...it wasn't until the third and final Super Bowl that Brady donned the franchise QB mantle...he was a high performing game manager until then...and since becoming a star...he hasn't won the ultimate game...system argument?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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brady has played in 5 super bowls and 8 afc championship games in 11 playoff appearances.

the loss of the undefeated team in the super bowl is the major black eye on his postseason career.
 
#190
#190
BigOrangeTrain said:
So you're saying Troy Brown is even in the same universe as Marvin Harrison or Reggie Wayne? Also I seriously doubt Brown makes it into the Hall of Fame. Get real.

Brady has been to 2 more super bowls since their last win. So whats Peyton's excuse for not going to the SB last year with a better and more balanced team than he had in Indy?

So basically the only reason Tom Brady has his rings are because of his team and the only reason Peyton has a ring is because of him.
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Sorry about the Troy Brown statement, he was elected into the Patriots HOF a little over a year ago not the NFL HOF so that was my mistake. It didn't seem right to me but I saw it and went with it. I did a quick search and didn't read closely enough. So this little face is what I feel like after that statement :crazy:.

As far as Marvin Harrison he was not anywhere near being on track for the HOF before Peyton got there. Granted he had only been in the league for 3 years but he had never even reached the 900 yard mark in a season or had more then 8 TDs. Also as far as the elite WR's go some of that falls on the QB. The fact that he didn't have any receivers that were considered great means he wasn't getting the ball to the receivers. This doesn't mean that Brady sucked but when he was winning championships his job was to be a game manager not a game changer. Peyton Manning made a lot of decent receivers look great. Example #1 Brandon Stokely in 2004 had over 1000 yds receiving and 10 td's. Only one other time in his entire career did he have even 600 yds. His next best year td wise 5. He was on the field so Peyton used him and made it work like he has done with all his receivers.

I know I have been ragging on ol Tommy boy, but in reality he is a HOF quarterback, even if it pains me to say it. The only point I am trying to make is that it is a team game. The idea that Tom Brady does no wrong in the playoffs and is the ultimate clutch quarterback is ridiculous. When he was winning championships his job was to be a game manager. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have both had some really crappy playoff games. The reason Peyton gets hammered for it is because it tends to be a more glaring problem when you don't have a great D and have trouble running the ball. Add in the QB has a bad game and the results aren't going to be pretty.

As far as why didn't Manning win last year. The most talented team does not win every year. Manning has lost even in Indianapolis with very talented teams. Having a talented team helps but does not guarantee a win. A Brady fan should know that better then anybody, the Giants have taught him that lesson a couple of times. :)

Brady does deserve some credit for the Patriots Championships. He was asked to manage the game and to occasionally make throws when necessary and he did a fantastic job at it. My point is that since he started making All-Pro teams and being counted on to put up All-Pro #'s every game, like Peyton has been asked to do his entire career. Their playoff record is almost indentical to one another.

Tom Brady since his first All Pro Team (2005): 10 wins/7 losses, 2 Superbowl appearances 0 wins

Peyton Manning since his first All Pro Team (1999): 10 wins/11 losses, 2 Superbowl appearances 1 win

Now I know it's not fair to act like Brady's 3 superbowl victories didn't happen. It sounds like I am trying to change history and that's really not what I am trying to do. He deserves some credit for those 3 championships. The reality is though as a QB it is a lot harder to win a championship when you are asked to put up MVP quality #'s every game. Brady's playoff win loss record of 9/0 with 3 championships before making the All Pro team and 10/7 with 0 championships after should tell you all you need to know. If all you need to do is manage games and win the Superbowl to be the GOAT then that would mean Trent Dilfer > Dan Marino. As far as should Peyton get all the credit for his Championship? Hell no it is a team game and his team deserves a lot of the credit. The reality of it is the year Peyton won the Championship it was one of his worst Post Season performances ever, the difference was that year his team stepped up and helped him and they won.
 
#191
#191
bleedorange0037 said:
Not at all. It just irritates me how people act like Manning deserves no blame for his teams consistently losing important games. There are people who try to act like Manning turns in a first-rate performance every time, only to be sabotaged by his teammates poor play. After 15+ years and various supporting casts, it's happened at every stop. At some point, you either have to recognize that he's partly responsible, or try to make argument that he is the single unluckiest person in the history of football due to the fact that from college all the way through a 15 year NFL career he was always teamed up with guys who laid down when it mattered most.
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I for one have no problem with Manning being partly responsible for playoff collapses. I do, however, have an issue when people blame a loss solely on Peyton (or any QB for that matter). Unless they come out and throw 5 pics, it generally takes more than 1 person to lose a game. QB's get too much credit and too much blame.

Peyton made a great point on the loss last year to Baltimore. If they had executed their 4 minute offense then Baltimore wouldn't have got the ball back and made the miraculous TD at the end of the game to send it to overtime. Many people, including myself, want to blame that on the secondary for not securing the victory. However, as with nearly every game, there are several plays that determine the outcome of a game. Rarely does one person lose a game.

Hopefully Peyton gets this ridiculous monkey off his back this year. I haven't heard or seen much credit given to him for executing the 4 minute offense this year to secure the victory against the Chargers. That pass on 3rd and 17 to Julian Thomas was awesome. If they don't make that play, I'm afraid the Chargers would have tied that game. Kudos to Peyton, keep it up for two more games. :rock:
 
#192
#192
jps2194 said:
I for one have no problem with Manning being partly responsible for playoff collapses. I do, however, have an issue when people blame a loss solely on Peyton (or any QB for that matter). Unless they come out and throw 5 pics, it generally takes more than 1 person to lose a game. QB's get too much credit and too much blame.

Peyton made a great point on the loss last year to Baltimore. If they had executed their 4 minute offense then Baltimore wouldn't have got the ball back and made the miraculous TD at the end of the game to send it to overtime. Many people, including myself, want to blame that on the secondary for not securing the victory. However, as with nearly every game, there are several plays that determine the outcome of a game. Rarely does one person lose a game.

Hopefully Peyton gets this ridiculous monkey off his back this year. I haven't heard or seen much credit given to him for executing the 4 minute offense this year to secure the victory against the Chargers. That pass on 3rd and 17 to Julian Thomas was awesome. If they don't make that play, I'm afraid the Chargers would have tied that game. Kudos to Peyton, keep it up for two more games. :rock:
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For blaming a loss solely on a QB, see Super Bowl XXX and Neil O'Donnell
 
#193
#193
99gator said:
this is a poor comparison.

all it says is the backup qb for peyton manning sucked something fierce.
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You do realize that Tom Brady's back-up had never started a game in the pros or in college, right?

It's Belichik's team. He is the one constant and the one chiefly responsible for their success. How people still continue to deny this, amazes me.
 
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#194
#194
99gator said:
i am not going to quote every post regarding this, but the reason manning takes heat for the playoffs is......

1. he has a losing record.

2. the amount of times that his team entered the postseason with the best record in the afc, sometimes the best record in the nfl and were 1 and done in the playoffs. not in the afc title game. not in the super bowl. homefield advantage and best record in the conference and lost the first playoff game.

that's the main reason he catches hell. as others have said, every player has their forgettable moments. 5 times, manning was on a team that won 12 games or more and was 1 and done. it's inexplicable.

one of the main misconceptions is that brady and the patriots have been manning's nemesis. as others have said, this is only their 4th meeting in the playoffs and manning has a win in the 3 games that have already been played. manning is now participating in the playoffs for the 13th different season.
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While I'm not certain who is the better of the 2, how is #2 a real issue? That's happened to Manning 2 times in 16 years. FYI, happened to Brady once also.
 
#195
#195
oregonvol said:
You do realize that Tom Brady's back-up had never started a game in the pros or in college, right?

It's Belichik's team. He is the one constant and the one chiefly responsible for their success. How people still continue to deny this, amazes me.
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To put the Belichick stuff to rest....How well did his "system" work for him in Cleveland? Well enough for him to get fired!!! This is not the Cleveland of today, but right before they became the Ravens.

ALL of his success as a head coach started AFTER Brady took over as QB. Coincidence? Don't think so.

2000 - 5-11 (no Brady)
2001 - 11-5 (Brady starting) Super Bowl winners

But you guys are right, it was just his system and Brady was just a "game manager" for all those Super Bowls.
 
#196
#196
volinSmyrna said:
To put the Belichick stuff to rest....How well did his "system" work for him in Cleveland? Well enough for him to get fired!!! This is not the Cleveland of today, but right before they became the Ravens.

ALL of his success as a head coach started AFTER Brady took over as QB. Coincidence? Don't think so.

2000 - 5-11 (no Brady)
2001 - 11-5 (Brady starting) Super Bowl winners

But you guys are right, it was just his system and Brady was just a "game manager" for all those Super Bowls.
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If you want to go with the "what were they before they met" argument, then look at Brady. Brady was no more than an above average QB before being coached by Belichik. He was never even first or second team Big Ten.

Brady was hardly the team's biggest strength when he started. To claim so is utterly ridiculous. They relied on defense to win early. When Brady went down in their first AFC Championship game, Belichik won it with Bledsoe and Troy Brown(another above average player who became a standout with Belichik coaching him) making plays. Brady did very little in the playoffs that year, it was the defense that carried them. Years later, when Brady went down for the season, Belichik won 10 games with his back-up, who had not started a game since high school. And Belichik is the one responsible for the signal stealing which helped the offense immensely during all their years of playoff success (and is rumored to continue in different forms to this day).
 
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#197
#197
volinSmyrna said:
To put the Belichick stuff to rest....How well did his "system" work for him in Cleveland? Well enough for him to get fired!!! This is not the Cleveland of today, but right before they became the Ravens.

ALL of his success as a head coach started AFTER Brady took over as QB. Coincidence? Don't think so.

2000 - 5-11 (no Brady)
2001 - 11-5 (Brady starting) Super Bowl winners

But you guys are right, it was just his system and Brady was just a "game manager" for all those Super Bowls.
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Its almost like being a good game manager isn't a necessary trait for a good qb or something.
 
#198
#198
oregonvol said:
If you want to go with the "what were they before they met" argument, then look at Brady. Brady was no more than an above average QB before being coached by Belichik. He was never even first or second team Big Ten.

Brady was hardly the team's biggest strength when he started. To claim so is utterly ridiculous. They relied on defense to win early. When Brady went down in their first AFC Championship game, Belichik won it with Bledsoe and Troy Brown(another above average player who became a standout with Belichik coaching him) making plays. Brady did very little in the playoffs that year, it was the defense that carried them. Years later, when Brady went down for the season, Belichik won 10 games with his back-up, who had not started a game since high school. And Belichik is the one responsible for the signal stealing which helped the offense immensely during all their years of playoff success (and is rumored to continue in different forms to this day).
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So Belichick all of a sudden became a good coach in 2001 after going 5-11 the year before with the same team? Come on man! Is he a good coach, sure. If Bledsoe hadn't gotten hurt in the 2nd game or Brady doesn't exist, they don't go to the SB in 2001....maybe not even the playoffs.
 
#199
#199
99gator said:
His passing targets are edelman and amendola.

His rbs are journeymen or a bunch of who dats.

He is working with a bunch of scrubs.

The defense is playing without mayo and wilfork. They dont have the ty law, assante samuel shut down corner anymore.

Its a top 5 draft pick team without brady and/or bellichek
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The head coach should get more credit for this Pat's team winning than the QB should.
 
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