Could the next 2 games decide Manning vs Brady debate?

#151
#151
sport111 said:
Who took over the years they were hurt. Curtis painter for the colts and never was on an nfl roster again. Cassell for the pats and has been a nfl stater almost every year since. Then Andrew luck takes over and they win 11 again
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Kerry Collins. Are we making stuff up now? Or did you just forget that?
 
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#152
#152
volfanbill said:
Because I'm willing to give another qb credit where it's due? Seriously, now that equals a bad fan? The absurdity and homerism of this board gets worse every freaking day.
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I hope we don't lose you.
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#154
#154
bleedorange0037 said:
But it was also brought up that Belichick was a mediocre at best HC prior to joining up with Brady. To say the Pats could have accomplished what they did over the past 12 years with ANY QB as long as Belichick was running the show is inaccurate.
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They would have won the super bowl multiple times with another average qb. Because that's exactly what tom brady was in the early 00s.
 
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#157
#157
Bet you all you want. Painter started last 8 or 9. Orvalsky (bet you don't even know him). Played a few. Kerry May have played 2 games at age 40
 
#158
#158
sport111 said:
Bet you all you want. Painter started last 8 or 9. Orvalsky (bet you don't even know him). Played a few. Kerry May have played 2 games at age 40
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3 games and they went 0-3,they were and would have continued to be terrible if he had played the whole year. Just like Matt Kassel.
 
#159
#159
butchna said:
I hope we don't lose you.
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whether this is sarcasm or not, I am reminded why I don't like venturing to the football forum, especially in the offseason. But if anyone wants to doubt my devotion to the Tennessee football team, it really doesn't bother me. I'm obviously shelling out all this money on tickets, travel back to the motherland to use said tickets, shirts, hats, memorabilia, banners, etc. all as a very elaborate troll job.
 
#161
#161
sport111 said:
Good comeback
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It wasn't a comeback. Kerry Collins came in and started for the colts and was terrible and so was painter and orlavsky(btw,fairly certain he started a few games for the lions as well) either way, Kassel sure as hell would not have went 10-6 with the colts. Anyone with a brain can see that.
 
#162
#162
sport111 said:
Who took over the years they were hurt. Curtis painter for the colts and never was on an nfl roster again. Cassell for the pats and has been a nfl stater almost every year since. Then Andrew luck takes over and they win 11 again
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Cassel had never even started a game in college when he took over the Pats and won 10-11 games that year. And yes he did parlay that into a decent contract as a starter for the Chiefs, where he had one decent year. I'm just sayin I think Peyton clearly means/meant more to his team than Brady does to the Pats. I'm NOT tryin to say Brady is no good.
 
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#163
#163
volfanbill said:
whether this is sarcasm or not, I am reminded why I don't like venturing to the football forum, especially in the offseason. But if anyone wants to doubt my devotion to the Tennessee football team, it really doesn't bother me. I'm obviously shelling out all this money on tickets, travel back to the motherland to use said tickets, shirts, hats, memorabilia, banners, etc. all as a very elaborate troll job.
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We needs da money :)...that's why I hope we don't lose you.
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#164
#164
bleedorange0037 said:
Nope. Chavis wasn't the one who threw the horrible INTS that ended both games before they ever really started either. That's what drives me so crazy about the Manning slurpers. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault. The guy is a phenomenal QB, but he's not without shortcomings like some folks seem to believe.
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Yes, he has shortcomings just like the entire VOL team did that lost the games you seem to want to pin solely on Peyton. :loco:

Sure he made mistakes, but he also put us in position to win a lot of those games and single handedly won games too. Blaming those losses on Peyton is idiotic. It's a TEAM game. You win and lose as a team.
 
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#165
#165
BOP said:
BTW, tom threw 1 td the entire playoffs in their first super bowl. He must have been the best ever at handling the ball off.
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Underrated skill.
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#166
#166
volfanbill said:
I'm not moving any goal posts, but if the Peyton sunshine pumpers get to parade around using the more with less excuse, Brady gets to use it now. And regardless of how this season shakes out, Brady will still have more rings come March. There are arguments made for both qbs that are very, very good as far as GOAT. I still put Joe Montana there personally, but if I had to take either Brady or Manning for one must win game, I'm picking Brady.

inb4 someone claims I'm not a V4L.
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I approve of this message.
 
#169
#169
bleedorange0037 said:
I'm not going to guarantee anything. Brady has made plenty of mistakes throughout his career, just not with a playoff game on the line yet.
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Someone already mentioned the boneheaded play out of his own end-zone a couple of years ago (the intentional grounding.) Then there was the 2009 playoffs where he turned the ball over 3 times in the first quarter effectively ending any hope the Patriots had of winning that game. Just for reference he also finished this game with 4 turnovers and a QBR of 49.1. Then there were also multiple times where Brady led the leagues best offense to 14 points or less to lose a game. These include 2012 AFC Championship and Super Bowl XLII. Now his first huge costly mistake was in the 2005 Divisional Round where the Patriots were trailing 10-6 late in the third quarter from the 5 yard line when Tommy threw a horrible pass into the end zone that was picked off and returned 100 yards by Champ Bailey. This play swung the momentum of the game and the Broncos went on to win 27-13.

Now before you say I was talking about 1 play that seals a loss for his team. Here is that one.

The 2006 AFC championship game with the Patriots trailing 38-34 with less than a minute left. Tom Brady was driving the Patriots on the Colts side of the field when he threw an interception allowing the Colts to run out the clock. He threw a weak pass over the middle which Marlin Jackson picked off.

Brady is a great quarterback but this myth that he is superman in the playoffs is BS. Someone already mentioned the superbowl he won while throwing 1 td in the entire playoffs. The other 2 he won he threw 5 td's in 3 games both years. That's not even averaging 2 td's a game. Not exactly carrying your team. He has had great teams supporting him along with a great coach and system.

To end this I will also state that Brady has never won a superbowl without his special video collection that the Patriots were forced to get rid of. :)
 
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#170
#170
BOP said:
No, my point is that winning super bowls is not solely based on QB play, which means that these guys can't be judged solely on super bowl wins. And that's the only way you can put brady above manning.
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So basically greatness is measured in the regular season only?
 
#171
#171
BOP said:
BTW, tom threw 1 td the entire playoffs in their first super bowl. He must have been the best ever at handling the ball off.
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He had some HOF WRs like Manning did didn't he? Can you even name a starting WR from their first SB?
 
#172
#172
The pats were 5-11 the the year before Brady took over (bellichek was there that year but hadn't became a guru yet). So that great team that carried him that year got a lot better somehow. He won 21 straight games in 2003 2004 then a few years later goes undefeated in regular season, both records in 16 game format. The guy has been to the Super Bowl in almost half the seasons in his career! Not to count afc championship games the other 2 or 3 times. I just don't see what else he can do. If he threw another td or 2 in his 5 Super Bowls , then he'd be the best? I love Peyton, he is top 3 all time to me, but I don't see any argument that can say he is better than those numbers
 
#173
#173
BigOrangeTrain said:
He had some HOF WRs like Manning did didn't he? Can you even name a starting WR from their first SB?
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Yes he had a HOF WR. His name is Troy Brown and he was their leading receiver. Tom Brady's job that year was to just hand the ball off and not screw up if he has to make a pass. Just let the defense and the rushing attack win the game.

sport111 said:
The pats were 5-11 the the year before Brady took over (bellichek was there that year but hadn't became a guru yet). So that great team that carried him that year got a lot better somehow. He won 21 straight games in 2003 2004 then a few years later goes undefeated in regular season, both records in 16 game format. The guy has been to the Super Bowl in almost half the seasons in his career! Not to count afc championship games the other 2 or 3 times. I just don't see what else he can do. If he threw another td or 2 in his 5 Super Bowls , then he'd be the best? I love Peyton, he is top 3 all time to me, but I don't see any argument that can say he is better than those numbers
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As much as it pains me to say this Brady is a great QB. My argument is that he should not be considered better then Peyton. All of Brady's championships were won with a team that was all around talented not just him.

Patriots Championships

2001 Offense - 6th in scoring, 22nd in passing yards, 13th in rushing yards
Defense - 6th in points allowed, 8th in turnovers forced
2003 Offense - 12th in scoring, 9th in passing yards, 27th in rushing yards
Defense - 1st in points allowed, 2nd in turnovers forced
2004 Offense - 4th in scoring, 11th in passing yards, 7th in rushing yards
Defense - 2nd in points allowed, 3rd in turnovers forced

So as you can see at the very best you can say his championship teams were balanced and it would be a lot easier to argue that they carried him, then it would be to argue that he carried his team. All 3 championship teams were ranked higher in defense then passing. In 2 of his 3 championships they were ranked higher in both rushing and defense then passing. The 1 season they were ranked higher passing then rushing, they had the #1 defense.

As far as the rest of your argument, other then the 3 championships, his team lost in the playoffs. When Manning carries his team and does this it is called a choke. When Brady does this with much more balanced teams and the guy considered to be the best coach in the league, it is considered an achievement? Since he lost his defense, rushing attack and tape collection he has yet to win another superbowl.
 
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#174
#174
i am not going to quote every post regarding this, but the reason manning takes heat for the playoffs is......

1. he has a losing record.

2. the amount of times that his team entered the postseason with the best record in the afc, sometimes the best record in the nfl and were 1 and done in the playoffs. not in the afc title game. not in the super bowl. homefield advantage and best record in the conference and lost the first playoff game.

that's the main reason he catches hell. as others have said, every player has their forgettable moments. 5 times, manning was on a team that won 12 games or more and was 1 and done. it's inexplicable.

one of the main misconceptions is that brady and the patriots have been manning's nemesis. as others have said, this is only their 4th meeting in the playoffs and manning has a win in the 3 games that have already been played. manning is now participating in the playoffs for the 13th different season.
 
#175
#175
Make no mistake: Manning needs to win this game to shut up all the pundits who continually talk about Brady's superior record in head-to-head meetings and more Super Bowl appearances. Cowher calls Belichick the best coach in NFL history--and it's hard to dispute that. Peyton & Co. needs to win this game.
 
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