Court Orders Dissolution of Trump Org

#530
#530
VolTull said:
Key point. IMVHO, they support their mega-borrowers to the nth.
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Trump personally guaranteed the loans. The guy owns several hundred LLCs and JVs across the world so the banks do have to rely on what he says is his true financial condition. Yes, the banks are doing high level due diligence on the big stuff. Our financial system would come to a screeching halt and borrowing costs would skyrocket if they had to do due diligence on every single little LLC/JV with billion dollar multinationals. That's why laws like 63(12) are in place. It provides a mechanism to punish people who show a repeated pattern of lying on bank forms.

The law does not require someone to be harmed, it just requires a repeated pattern...
 
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#531
#531
BigOrangeMojo said:
Trump personally guaranteed the loans. The guy owns several hundred LLCs and JVs across the world so the banks do have to rely on what he says is his true financial condition. Yes, the banks are doing high level due diligence on the big stuff. Our financial system would come to a screeching halt and borrowing costs would skyrocket if they had to do due diligence on every single little LLC/JV with billion dollar multinationals. That's why laws like 63(12) are in place. It provides a mechanism to punish people who show a repeated pattern of lying on bank forms.

The law does not require someone to be harmed, it just requires a repeated pattern...
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I would think a personal guarantee is a requirement. That is a very good summary. 63(12) is broad. The "repeated pattern" is there without debate.
 
#532
#532
For a friend, he filled out a loan application several years ago stating he owned a car worth $1000 but the engine had thrown a rod. He got the loan paid it off and rebuilt the engine, do you think he’s at risk of the state of NY coming after him for fraud?
 
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#533
#533
Wireless1 said:
For a friend, he filled out a loan application several years ago stating he owned a car worth $1000 but the engine had thrown a rod. He got the loan paid it off and rebuilt the engine, do you think he’s at risk of the state of NY coming after him for fraud?
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Nowhere near the same.

Trump hired an independent appraiser for value of 40 Wall St. Appraiser said it was worth 240 million. Trump put that it was worth over 700 million on application....
 
#534
#534
BigOrangeMojo said:
Nowhere near the same.

Trump hired an independent appraiser for value of 40 Wall St. Appraiser said it was worth 240 million. Trump put that it was worth over 700 million on application....
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Do you think Trump would have sold it for $240m? For $700m. Was the 240m for the whole and 700m the sum of the whole?
If you own 400 acres of land outside Nashville is it worth $4M at 10k per acre or is it worth $10m because you know with minimal development it could be building lots at $25K per acre
 
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#535
#535
Wireless1 said:
Do you think Trump would have sold it for $240m? For $700m. Was the 240m for the whole and 700m the sum of the whole?
If you own 400 acres of land outside Nashville is it worth $4M at 10k per acre or is it worth $10m because you know with minimal development it could be building lots at $25K per acre
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I have no idea how a completely unrelated hypothetical related to undeveloped land compares to Trump completely ignoring what the professional appraiser he hired said to the value of a mostly occupied (at that time) 100 year old office building.

Not arguing politics wasn't at play some here but there were 3-4 pretty blatant misstatements that he made throughput that doesn't make him a victim either...
 
#536
#536
VolTull said:
You see, that's a problem. You believe that it is OK to illegally acquire multi-million $$$ funding on the back of falsified information. I don't. Regardless of repayment status.
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And who decided it was illegal? Borrower wants to borrow X. Lender reviews the loan package and agrees to loan X. Borrower pays back X plus interest.

New York judge who knows nothing decides the loan package wasn’t valued the way he thinks it should have been and attempts to destroy borrower using the power of the state.

You see, that’s a problem. You believe it is OK to use the power of the state to destroy your political enemies. You are so blinded by your hatred of Trump you literally cannot see the political machinations by the State of NY to get him.

i don’t like him. Wish he would go away. But I fear a government that does this and the people like you that think it is okay far more.
 
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#537
#537
BigOrangeMojo said:
I have no idea how a completely unrelated hypothetical related to undeveloped land compares to Trump completely ignoring what the professional appraiser he hired said to the value of a mostly occupied (at that time) 100 year old office building.

Not arguing politics wasn't at play some here but there were 3-4 pretty blatant misstatements that he made throughput that doesn't make him a victim either...
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Professional appraisers really do not mean much to me. They are bound sometimes by arcane rules that can seriously undervalue a property for appraisal purposes.

The most important valuation is can the borrower pay back the loan. That was 100% proven beyond doubt.
 
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#538
#538
BigOrangeMojo said:
I have no idea how a completely unrelated hypothetical related to undeveloped land compares to Trump completely ignoring what the professional appraiser he hired said to the value of a mostly occupied (at that time) 100 year old office building.

Not arguing politics wasn't at play some here but there were 3-4 pretty blatant misstatements that he made throughput that doesn't make him a victim either...
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I was attempting to show how many legitimate and different evaluations of value can be correct.for the same asset. If you are blind to additional senecios because Trump is bad then you will just be blind.
 
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#540
#540
hog88 said:
In the end after appeals the verdict will stand but the penalty will be reduced to a slap on the wrist. Every developer and real estate baron in NY State is calling their political contacts this morning.
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I saw this morning that to appeal in NY a person has to put up the money up front + 20%, also add in court costs lawyer fees etc) which goes into escrow. Anxious to see where that money comes from, I doubt he has that much cash on hand, especially with the other lawsuit he has to pay on.
 
#541
#541
Sin City Vol said:
I saw this morning that to appeal in NY a person has to put up the money up front + 20%, also add in court costs lawyer fees etc) which goes into escrow. Anxious to see where that money comes from, I doubt he has that much cash on hand, especially with the other lawsuit he has to pay on.
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He can buy a bond. It will be expensive but not 300+million expensive.

Anyone celebrating this ruling or the fact that Trump has to put up that much money to appeal is a real dirtbag. Just remember the same rules forcing Trump to put up that money are the same rules anyone else in NY has to deal with. It’s a system designed to prevent people from appealing court decisions and that is not justice.
 
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#542
#542
hog88 said:
He can buy a bond. It will be expensive but not 300+million expensive.

Anyone celebrating this ruling or the fact that Trump has to put up that much money to appeal is a real dirtbag. Just remember the same rules forcing Trump to put up that money are the same rules anyone else in NY has to deal with. It’s a system designed to prevent people from appealing court decisions and that is not justice.
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I don’t personally believe he’ll pay anywhere near that BUT each day interest accumulates. If he fails to pay they can seize his assets and sell it off for example Trump Tower. He’s already sold a couple of big properties, a golf course in NY and something else, throw in Truth Social going public he may end up having a little more money than expected
 
#543
#543
Sin City Vol said:
I don’t personally believe he’ll pay anywhere near that BUT each day interest accumulates. If he fails to pay they can seize his assets and sell it off for example Trump Tower. He’s already sold a couple of big properties, a golf course in NY and something else, throw in Truth Social going public he may end up having a little more money than expected
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Trump will come out of this relatively unscathed, everyone should be disgusted at the rules.
 
#544
#544
hog88 said:
Trump will come out of this relatively unscathed, everyone should be disgusted at the rules.
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I hate "pay to play" for sure. It's even worse on the income tax side there. You get an assessment and your first level appeal is still within the Dept. of Finance. If they rule against you, you have to pay up before you get into the judicial branch.

If you owe $$$, you owe at at 8% interest. If they refund a portion of it, they pay you back at 3% interest...
 
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#545
#545
BigOrangeMojo said:
I hate "pay to play" for sure. It's even worse on the income tax side there. You get an assessment and your first level appeal is still within the Dept. of Finance. If they rule against you, you have to pay up before you get into the judicial branch.

If you owe $$$, you owe at at 8% interest. If they refund a portion of it, they pay you back at 3% interest...
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It’s a system designed to keep the middle down.
 
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#546
#546
Such a bogus lawsuit. How many people exaggerate assets on loan applications? 99.9%

And valuations are subjective. Say I have an asset that appraised for $2 mil. Do I think I could sell it for that? No way, something to me is worth what someone else will pay for it. But if I filled out a financial statement today, I'd list it at $2mil which is what it appraised for.

Financial statements are to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Get a good appraisal on your collateral and make sure the borrowers have the capacity to make the payments. The value of assets unrelated to the transaction should have very little weight.

Not a Trump guy, but from day one I thought this was the dumbest lawsuit.
 
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#547
#547
hog88 said:
In the end after appeals the verdict will stand but the penalty will be reduced to a slap on the wrist. Every developer and real estate baron in NY State is calling their political contacts this morning.
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Agree.

Approx. $187MM of the $355MM is reversing long-term gains on sale of assets that Trump managed, improved, renovated, etc.

$60M is for Ferry Point, which Trump got to manage because he told NYC he was worth $3 billion dollars in 2010, when Forbes put him at 2.6B. That valuation gap is close enough where this one should be thrown out. Yes, Trump's annual required filings the next few years did include the inflated numbers but even without them, he did not have a material change in net worth that would have prevented him from maintaining Ferry Point.
 
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#548
#548
MurphyVol said:
Such a bogus lawsuit. How many people exaggerate assets on loan applications? 99.9%

And valuations are subjective. Say I have an asset that appraised for $2 mil. Do I think I could sell it for that? No way, something to me is worth what someone else will pay for it. But if I filled out a financial statement today, I'd list it at $2mil which is what it appraised for.

Financial statements are to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Get a good appraisal on your collateral and make sure the borrowers have the capacity to make the payments. The value of assets unrelated to the transaction should have very little weight.

Not a Trump guy, but from day one I thought this was the dumbest lawsuit.
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Financial statements should be rock solid, if Trump were falsifying his books and using them for the basis of his loans I’d be in agreement with NY. But that doesn’t appear to be the case.
 
#550
#550
hog88 said:
Financial statements should be rock solid, if Trump were falsifying his books and using them for the basis of his loans I’d be in agreement with NY. But that doesn’t appear to be the case.
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And, unlike stocks. You can't get a daily price on real estate. What is the value of my house? Well, what time frame do I have to liquidate?

I've seen two different appraisals on the same property be 40% apart....and these are by professionals. The only thing a lender should feel is very accurately valued on a fin statement is cash and listed securities.
 
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