Court Orders Dissolution of Trump Org

#127
#127
Hunerwadel said:
It's pretty amazing to see how many guys on a sports forum show sympathy and support for a blatant cheater. Some are saying there are no victims here. What about the guy who may have had equal assets to Trump but couldn't get feasible interest and insurance rates because the other guy cheated.
Click to expand...
for me its about an over reactive government apparently using underhanded tactics to go after political enemies.

Its been asked multiple times in this thread, and I haven't seen an answer.
Is there precedence for any part of this? has the/a government gone after an individual or business for making false claims on the value of property? How were these numbers determined? seems really shady the government can come in behind you, determine your assets are worth something far different than you claimed years ago, and then hit you with a civil case based on a dollar determination they just made up.
Why is it a civil case? Seems like they knew they didn't have evidence to meet the standard of a criminal case, and the civil case it just a means to get a favorable outcome because they don't have a real crime.
Is there precedence for a prosecutor or judge alleging/ruling CRIMINAL charges in a CIVIL case and basing the punishment on that? I know typically if criminal charges/evidence is discovered in a civil case there has to be a separate criminal case, and typically the ruling of the civil case can not be used to determine an outcome of a criminal charge. which sounds like is what is happening here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BreatheUT and davethevol
#128
#128
Hunerwadel said:
It's pretty amazing to see how many guys on a sports forum show sympathy and support for a blatant cheater. Some are saying there are no victims here. What about the guy who may have had equal assets to Trump but couldn't get feasible interest and insurance rates because the other guy cheated.
Click to expand...

That’s not the way it works. Not the way any of that works.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 0nelilreb, davethevol and Vol8188
#129
#129
whodeycin85 said:
If the loan is paid in full, agreed upon by both parties, where is the fraud??? That the judge and AG don't agree when it?? Items/property are valued at what someone whom pay...
Click to expand...

He cheated the banks shareholders by getting lower interest rates and unduly put them at financial risk because he knowingly lied about the value of the collateralized assets value. The deception was used and intended to result in personal or financial gain.

That's called fraud, it's a textbook definition.

You don't have to like it - but you can't deny it. Though my guess is that ya'll would be frothing at the mouth if this were a democrat.

How about using a little intellectual honesty and objectivity?
 
#130
#130
Septic said:
No one is suggesting that the banks don't have a responsibility to vet the value of the collateral they accept - BUT them failing to do that has no bearing of him willfully and knowingly attesting to a value in which he knew wasn't remotely accurate.

You can keep deflecting to the banks, but it doesn't solve this problem. His fraud is as evident as their negligence. He is being held accountable and the banks shareholders should hold the banks leadership accountable.
Click to expand...
he is being held accountable for CRIMINAL wrong doing in a CIVIL case?

that doesn't smell fishy, at all, to you?
 
  • Like
Reactions: NurseGoodVol
#131
#131
whodeycin85 said:
the banks and trump agreed to the value but the AG and judge don't agree.. seems like a subjective decision to not accepts those agreed upon values
Click to expand...
I think the issue is a little more nuanced than you, @hog88, and @davethevol are making it out to be. Borrowers on business loans provide financial statement listing assets/liabilities, valuations etc, regardless of whether the bank is using those assets as collateral. Apparently it is illegal to lie on these forms in New york. The only property the bank actually appraises is the property being mortgaged, but they rely on financials in part to determine credit worthiness. They do not appraise every asset you own every time you get a loan even if those assets are listed on the Financials.

I ask any of you to point me to the specific exemption from the statute at issue that provides not being caught by the bank is a specific defense to lying to a bank to get a loan.
 
#132
#132
Septic said:
He cheated the banks shareholders by getting lower interest rates and unduly put them at financial risk because he knowingly lied about the value of the collateralized assets value. The deception was used and intended to result in personal or financial gain.

That's called fraud, it's a textbook definition.

You don't have to like it - but you can't deny it. Though my guess is that ya'll would be frothing at the mouth if this were a democrat.

How about using a little intellectual honesty and objectivity?
Click to expand...
Fair evaluation.... wouldn't that be criminal then as well??
 
#133
#133
Septic said:
No one is suggesting that the banks don't have a responsibility to vet the value of the collateral they accept - BUT them failing to do that has no bearing of him willfully and knowingly attesting to a value in which he knew wasn't remotely accurate.

You can keep deflecting to the banks, but it doesn't solve this problem. His fraud is as evident as their negligence. He is being held accountable and the banks shareholders should hold the banks leadership accountable.
Click to expand...

So you believe banks are giving out loans for hundreds of millions or more without verifying the value of the collateral? That’s your actual stance here?

The reason what you’re calling a “deflection” matters here is because your entire claim is he got better terms based on a lie. But the truth is your terms are based on the banks perception of your assets value, not on your own perception.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BreatheUT, 0nelilreb and hog88
#134
#134
Septic said:
No one is suggesting that the banks don't have a responsibility to vet the value of the collateral they accept - BUT them failing to do that has no bearing of him willfully and knowingly attesting to a value in which he knew wasn't remotely accurate.

You can keep deflecting to the banks, but it doesn't solve this problem. His fraud is as evident as their negligence. He is being held accountable and the banks shareholders should hold the banks leadership accountable.
Click to expand...

Then I guess everyone who’s ever refinanced their house and didn’t use the tax assessors value committed fraud.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 0nelilreb, LouderVol, davethevol and 2 others
#135
#135
clarksvol00 said:
I think the issue is a little more nuanced than you, @hog88, and @davethevol are making it out to be. Borrowers on business loans provide financial statement listing assets/liabilities, valuations etc, regardless of whether the bank is using those assets as collateral. Apparently it is illegal to lie on these forms in New york. The only property the bank actually appraises is the property being mortgaged, but they rely on financials in part to determine credit worthiness. They do not appraise every asset you own every time you get a loan even if those assets are listed on the Financials.

I ask any of you to point me to the specific exemption from the statute at issue that provides not being caught by the bank is a specific defense to lying to a bank to get a loan.
Click to expand...
Do you have a case for reference to where this type of charge had been brought without a criminal component??
 
#138
#138
Vol8188 said:
Seems you’re trying to redirect the conversation away from your previous claims here and trying to broaden the scope. Are you willing to accept that Mar-a-lago is worth 100s of millions? Not 18-24m?
Click to expand...

Looks like I was wrong about the 900% overvaluation - thanks for asking me to look into it.

(The Judge) wrote that while the Palm Beach County assessor had appraised Mar-a-Lago's market value to be between $18 million and $27.6 million, Trump had put it at between $426.5 million to $612.1 million in filings—"an overvaluation of at least 2,300 percent." Source

As was stated, the 'zillow' valuations are based on single family homes and estates. Comparing nearby lots or homes is a strawman. Mar a Lago is deeded to remain a club, drastically reducing its re-value. Additionally, it's at least in part on the historic register - another detrimental factor to the re-sale value.
 
#140
#140
clarksvol00 said:
And I'm not sure how that is relevant to whether the bank not catching it or calling it out is relevant to defenses in the civil case.
Click to expand...
Because both parties agreed to it with the same understanding of the valuations....why do you think they chose to drop the criminal side and go civil only without the banks involvement???
 
#141
#141
clarksvol00 said:
I think the issue is a little more nuanced than you, @hog88, and @davethevol are making it out to be. Borrowers on business loans provide financial statement listing assets/liabilities, valuations etc, regardless of whether the bank is using those assets as collateral. Apparently it is illegal to lie on these forms in New york. The only property the bank actually appraises is the property being mortgaged, but they rely on financials in part to determine credit worthiness. They do not appraise every asset you own every time you get a loan even if those assets are listed on the Financials.

I ask any of you to point me to the specific exemption from the statute at issue that provides not being caught by the bank is a specific defense to lying to a bank to get a loan.
Click to expand...

Submitting false P&Ls/financials is fraud but so far I haven’t seen anyone accuse him of that. It’s up to the lender to verify the value of the assets they are accepting as collateral. If the lender accepted a valuation 100x higher than reality it’s on them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: davethevol
#142
#142
hog88 said:
Submitting false P&Ls/financials is fraud but so far I haven’t seen anyone accuse him of that. It’s up to the lender to verify the value of the assets they are accepting as collateral. If the lender accepted a valuation 100x higher than reality it’s on them.
Click to expand...
And financial responsibility for the shareholders is on the banks end....not trumps
 
#145
#145
hog88 said:
Submitting false P&Ls/financials is fraud but so far I haven’t seen anyone accuse him of that. It’s up to the lender to verify the value of the assets they are accepting as collateral. If the lender accepted a valuation 100x higher than reality it’s on them.
Click to expand...
from NYT:
"Justice Engoron wrote that the annual financial statements that Mr. Trump submitted to banks and insurance companies “clearly contain fraudulent valuations that defendants used in business.”
 
#147
#147
hog88 said:
Then I guess everyone who’s ever refinanced their house and didn’t use the tax assessors value committed fraud.
Click to expand...

Banks require appraisals for home loans, trump wasn't getting a home loan. He submitted a portfolio of value inflated properties as collateral for lower interest rates and insurance premiums, but you know that.

Trump is the victim, always the victim.
 
#148
#148
hog88 said:
That’s not false financials. You know this.
Click to expand...

He should have used you for his lawyer'n - I'll be you wouldn't have even had to pay the $7,500 fine like all his did for being idiots.
 
#150
#150
Septic said:
Banks require appraisals for home loans, trump wasn't getting a home loan. He submitted a portfolio of value inflated properties as collateral for lower interest rates and insurance premiums, but you know that.

Trump is the victim, always the victim.
Click to expand...


Yes I know what he did and it’s still up to the lender to assess value on collateral.

Plus there are different types of valuations for commercial properties. I’m not 100% on the exact terms but there is economic value, how much the property is worth if sold plus income potential. And there is straight up what the dirt and structure is worth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: davethevol
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top