D4H's 2017 NBA Draft Preview

#251
#251
n_huffhines said:
So I guess every season Kobe didn't win the finals, you were calling him a bum?

You're totally unreasonable about Howard.
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No, because he has a winning record in the finals to make up for it. At one time Dwight Howard was an elite center. But he's always been soft. He'll never have a ring because he doesnt want a ring bad enough and it shows through his play. And also the way his career has been trending. His own hometown team didnt even want him.
 
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#252
#252
K-town Vol Fan said:
No, because he has a winning record in the finals to make up for it. At one time Dwight Howard was an elite center. But he's always been soft. He'll never have a ring because he doesnt want a ring bad enough and it shows through his play. And also the way his career has been trending. His own hometown team didnt even want him.
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What on earth does this have to do with 2013 Dwight?

There are very few centers who banged more than Dwight. He made his living in the deep post. Since I've been watching the NBA (1991), I think Shaq is the only guy that's done more in the deep post.

For reference, in Hakeem's last two seasons (can't look back further than that), he took more shots from 10-16' than he did at the rim.

Dwight took a lot more shots at the rim than he did at 3-10' and 10'-16' combined. Dude was in the trenches all the time working his ass off for the best shot. Walk a mile in his shoes, then call him soft.
 
#253
#253
TUSKtimes said:
At this point in his career, he's chasing Kareem's scoring record, he'll smoke Jordan. And pretty sure Lebron would be happy to trade the ball sticking point guard for a D-Wade in his prime. Looking forward to a trade soon.
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"Smoke Jordan" in a category he had no interest in. Way to go...way to go. :clap:
 
#254
#254
Dobbs 4 Heisman said:
You mean the same Phil Jackson that was fired by the Knicks?

Phil Jackson is a product of Jordan, Kobe, and Shaq. Not the other way around. Greg Popvich is arguably the only coach that has made a difference between winning a championship or losing. Every other NBA champion has been driven by the player.

And FTR, the reason Kobe and Shaq didn't win before Phil is because Kobe was 18-20 years old. He wasn't a superstar yet. For most of those years he wasn't even a starter. He was coming off the bench. Phil Jackson joined the Lakers when Kobe was 21 years old.

And in 2005, Phil Jackson returned to the Lakers to coach Kobe. The Lakers stayed pretty bad until 2008 when they traded for Pau Gasol. Once again it was players that decided the championship not a coach.
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Larry Brown

Who, ironically for the context of this debate, beat Phil, Shaq, Kobe, etc without a single HOFer.
 
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#255
#255
Not sure who on the Pistons gets the credit, but in that series Kobe averaged

22.6 ppg, 22.6 FGApg, an eFG% of .398, and had 4.4 assists with 3.6 turnovers.

During the regular season he averaged

24.0 ppg, 18.1 FGApg, an eFG% of .468, and had 5.1 assists with 2.6 turnovers.

All time choke job.
 
#257
#257
n_huffhines said:
Not sure who on the Pistons gets the credit, but in that series Kobe averaged

22.6 ppg, 22.6 FGApg, an eFG% of .398, and had 4.4 assists with 3.6 turnovers.

During the regular season he averaged

24.0 ppg, 18.1 FGApg, an eFG% of .468, and had 5.1 assists with 2.6 turnovers.

All time choke job.
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Prince probably?
 
#265
#265
n_huffhines said:
Probably, I don't recall. But I'm also wondering if Brown had some genius schemes that contributed. For example, what if he said "don't deny ball to Kobe"? If he did, it worked out really well.
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I can't remember either, Z would know. Larry Brown to me is a top 3 or 4 coach, as far as actual coaching.
 
#267
#267
BadJerry20 said:
I can't remember either, Z would know. Larry Brown to me is a top 3 or 4 coach, as far as actual coaching.
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Prince primarily guarded him. His wingspan really bothered Kobe and this was right before the hand check rules so they roughed him up. They also singled Shaq all series which was rare so they could not swing the ball to Kobe when scrambling back. Also I remember Brown said in a interview they would play a zone when Kobe had the ball and let Kobe play one on one. Detroit had such good individual defenders they didnt have to focus on rotating as much and can stay at home.

Phil also said Kobe completely abandoned the triangle and played iso ball the entire series which played right in Detroit's hands.
 
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#268
#268
BadJerry20 said:
If he got partially shut down by Rip then that ends the Kobe discussion.
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All yall are focusing in on is 1 finals loss where Kobe didnt perform up to his standards. Look at Bron's finals record. Look at LeBrons record in Game 1s. He is 1-7 in game 1s in the finals in his career.
 
#269
#269
K-town Vol Fan said:
All yall are focusing in on is 1 finals loss where Kobe didnt perform up to his standards. Look at Bron's finals record. Look at LeBrons record in Game 1s. He is 1-7 in game 1s in the finals in his career.
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What about game 7 of the Celtics series when Kobe quit on his team and lost by 39
 
#270
#270
If Dwight was as good as some of y'all think he is, he wouldn't be on his 4th team in 6 years.

Physically gifted? Sure

A guy you want on your basketball team? Probably not.
 
#271
#271
K-town Vol Fan said:
All yall are focusing in on is 1 finals loss where Kobe didnt perform up to his standards. Look at Bron's finals record. Look at LeBrons record in Game 1s. He is 1-7 in game 1s in the finals in his career.
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Lebron has like 5 of the greatest finals performances ever. I am not focusing on 1 finals. I've mentioned various times that he was bad in two whole playoff runs to the finals. Furthermore:

He was useless against Indiana - 15.6 ppg, eFG% of .377

He struggled against Philly - 22.6 ppg, eFG% of .429

He was great against NJ - 24.6 ppg, eFG% of .557

He was OK against Boston - 25.6 ppg, eFG% of .439

He was great against Orlando - 32.4 ppg, eFG% of .463, 7.4 apg, 3.2 topg

He was good against Boston - 28.6 ppg, eFG% of .450, 3.8 apg, 3.8 topg

He's really not that clutch. That's only 2 great series in 7 tries.
 
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#272
#272
n_huffhines said:
Probably, I don't recall. But I'm also wondering if Brown had some genius schemes that contributed. For example, what if he said "don't deny ball to Kobe"? If he did, it worked out really well.
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Nope. The Pistons just double and triple teammed Kobe every play while playing Shaq one on one. They knew Kobe would not be content just watching Shaq dominate the finals. So they used his aggressiveness/selfishness against him. And it worked. Kobe rather than passing to the open man kept forcing the issue against a defense that was designed to stop him rather than Shaq.

The Spurs in 2008 tried a similar method. But Kobe was more mature then and beat them by playing through his teammates and then dominating in the 4th quarter. If you remember that series, Kobe would barely have that many points in the 1st half, only to explode in the 2nd.
 
#273
#273
n_huffhines said:
Do I need to post Kobe's stats again?
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Did you even watch that series or are you a kid?

I actually watched it. Pistons were doubling Kobe and closing out all driving lanes to him. Basically forcing him to play through Shaq. This was the height of the Kobe/Shaq beef. I think Kobe just went into with the mindset we're either gonna win this through my hand or we're gonna lose. Obviously they lost.
 
#274
#274
zjcvols said:
Prince primarily guarded him. His wingspan really bothered Kobe and this was right before the hand check rules so they roughed him up. They also singled Shaq all series which was rare so they could not swing the ball to Kobe when scrambling back. Also I remember Brown said in a interview they would play a zone when Kobe had the ball and let Kobe play one on one. Detroit had such good individual defenders they didnt have to focus on rotating as much and can stay at home.

Phil also said Kobe completely abandoned the triangle and played iso ball the entire series which played right in Detroit's hands.
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Now this guy actually knows what he's talking about. This is exactly what happened. Kobe basically screwed himself and the team by trying to play iso ball against a defense designed to stop him and leave Shaq one on one.

His horrible performance was not the result of his talent but his ego. Kobe was willing to lose with him shooting than to pass to a single covered Shaq and possibly win.
 
#275
#275
volsarelife1 said:
What about game 7 of the Celtics series when Kobe quit on his team and lost by 39
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Kobe's finals resume has warts. Only Jordan is a pristine 6-0. But Kobe is nonetheless 5-2.

I think the problem with LeBron fans is they're always trying to make excuses for him rather than just pointing out his flaws. I'm a Kobe fan but I know his ego and selfishness cost the Lakers the series against the Pistons. Sometimes you just gotta take the bad with the good with players like Kobe.
 
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