Dawinists standing on the panic button.

[OrangeEmpire]

Again. If God was infallible, he'd have known that Man would have eaten the fruit at the behest of a talking serpent.

So it was a setup the whole time? He knew beforehand that we would sin in that case. He is omniscient, correct?

To me, that dooms Man to nothing but an ignorant and frivolous existence. More of a pity that God has kept us around than anything else. Nothing like a life filled with sin to bring out the guilt and empty the coffers.


If God did create the Universe (I'm arguing against the presentation in the Bible, not at the possibility of God), I honestly doubt he'd tell humans the secret of creation if he knew beforehand that we'd just fark it all up.

Setup?

You are making this harder than it had to be. The bottom line is choice or free will.

 

[IPorange]

Again. If God was infallible, he'd have known that Man would have eaten the fruit at the behest of a talking serpent.

So it was a setup the whole time? He knew beforehand that we would sin in that case. He is omniscient, correct?

To me, that dooms Man to nothing but an ignorant and frivolous existence. More of a pity that God has kept us around than anything else. Nothing like a life filled with sin to bring out the guilt and empty the coffers.

I made a very similar case to my mother when I was 20 and she slapped me. Good times.

If God created some whom he knew would never believe, didn't he damn them to hell by design? If he made someone who would undoubtedly choose wrong, and knew they would choose wrong before creating them, didn't he condemn them from the start?

 

[OrangeEmpire]

I made a very similar case to my mother when I was 20 and she slapped me. Good times.

If God created some whom he knew would never believe, didn't he damn them to hell by design? If he made someone who would undoubtedly choose wrong, and knew they would choose wrong before creating them, didn't he condemn them from the start?

I swear, haven't you people seen the best modern interpretation of the bible?

Every thing is about the freedom to choose. That is the most important thing that humans have.

 

[DC Vol]

I swear, haven't you people seen the best modern interpretation of the bible?

Every thing is about the freedom to choose. That is the most important thing that humans have.

But if you choose the wrong thing in your time here on Earth (doesn't matter if you're a good human being) you're damned to Hell.



Doesn't seem like Free Will to me. Seems like playing Russian Roulette with a semi-auto pistol.

 

[IPorange]

I swear, haven't you people seen the best modern interpretation of the bible?

Every thing is about the freedom to choose. That is the most important thing that humans have.

Sure, but when you talk about an omnipresent and omnipotent creator, you have to wonder about the context of that choice. Is a pagean tribesman in sub-saharan Africa being presented the same type of choice as little Susie in Northern Georgia? Or how about between little Johnny and his atheist parents, and little Timmy whose parents have taken to the Philippines to perform circumcisions and preach?

 

[DC Vol]

Sure, but when you talk about an omnipresent and omnipotent creator, you have to wonder about the context of that choice. Is a pagean tribesman in sub-saharan Africa being presented the same type of choice as little Susie in Northern Georgia? Or how about between little Johnny and his atheist parents, and little Timmy whose parents have taken to the Philippines to perform circumcisions and preach?

That's the beauty of a flawed existence.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

But if you choose the wrong thing in your time here on Earth (doesn't matter if you're a good human being or not apparently) you're damned to Hell.



Doesn't seem like Free Will to me.

How do you know what are you doing is wrong?

I didn't want to go preacher on you guys but this is getting quite interesting.

It was not necessary for Adam and Eve to disobey God. They chose to do so. The same applies to you and me. Is it necessary for you and me to disobey God? No, when we have done so, we have chosen to do so. As to punishment, that’s the ground rule that God lays down: ‘The soul who sins will die’ (Ezekiel 18:4).

 

[DC Vol]

How do you know what are you doing is wrong?

I didn't want to go preacher on you guys but this is getting quite interesting.

It was not necessary for Adam and Eve to disobey God. They chose to do so. The same applies to you and me. Is it necessary for you and me to disobey God? No, when we have done so, we have chosen to do so. As to punishment, that’s the ground rule that God lays down: ‘The soul who sins will die’ (Ezekiel 18:4).

But again, it comes back to an omniscient God creating Man in his image. Then tempting him with sin... knowing he'll sin, as he's omniscient.

 

[IPorange]

How do you know what are you doing is wrong?

I didn't want to go preacher on you guys but this is getting quite interesting.

It was not necessary for Adam and Eve to disobey God. They chose to do so. The same applies to you and me. Is it necessary for you and me to disobey God? No, when we have done so, we have chosen to do so. As to punishment, that’s the ground rule that God lays down: ‘The soul who sins will die’ (Ezekiel 18:4).

What if one doesn't think they did do wrong? We live in a world that's described as being "morally relative" by christians. Right there shows that we all don't agree on what's wrong. Do you think DC vol or myself think we are doing wrong by exercising our God-given reasoning abilities right now? I think I can safely speak for both of us and say we don't. And yet I know that we are skirting the lines of blasphemy, in some people's eyes.

You have now brought up the bible and its teachings. I think the bible is full of wonderful teachings and wisdom. But what about those who can't read? What about those who don't have and never will have access to a bible? How are they supposed to access those soul-saving teachings, and know what constitutes sin?

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Sure, but when you talk about an omnipresent and omnipotent creator, you have to wonder about the context of that choice. Is a pagean tribesman in sub-saharan Africa being presented the same type of choice as little Susie in Northern Georgia? Or how about between little Johnny and his atheist parents, and little Timmy whose parents have taken to the Philippines to perform circumcisions and preach?

God allowed it to the point that He gave Adam and Eve free choice. But God also warned them of the consequences: ‘You must not eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die’ (Genesis 2:17).

We can apply the same two questions to the world today or to yourself and myself. Does God allow you and me to do what we do, even when it may be sin? Yes, but He warns us of the consequences. Could He stop a person from doing something wrong?

Sometimes He does by sending angels to protect an intended victim, for example. However, once God had given mankind free choice as part of His original plan that people should love Him willingly and obey Him willingly, there is a sense in which God could not stop man disobeying him without negating the whole basis of God’s relationship with man and man’s relationship with God.

Willing love is what people can do because of the way God made us. Servile obedience is what a robot does. A robot can be programmed to obey; it cannot be programmed to love. God could have gone either way when he created man. He chose to create people rather than robots.

If all this is unsatisfactory (as it no doubt is to many people), it should not cause people to overlook what the Bible does tell us, or to deny what the Bible does tell us.

The Bible tells us that God does know the end from the beginning and that God did go ahead with creating mankind, even though he knew that man would rebel. To this must be added the fact that before creation God made provision for the remedy, in the Lamb (i.e. God’s Son, the Lord Jesus Christ) that in the mind or thinking of God ‘was slain before the creation of the world’.

So we must never divorce the two—in the mind of God before He began Creation, there was both the fact of man’s rebellion and the Cross. Knowing that both would happen, God still went ahead. This is the clear teaching of the Bible.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

What if one doesn't think they did do wrong? We live in a world that's described as being "morally relative" by christians. Right there shows that we all don't agree on what's wrong. Do you think DC vol or myself think we are doing wrong by exercising our God-given reasoning abilities right now? I think I can safely speak for both of us and say we don't. And yet I know that we are skirting the lines of blasphemy, in some people's eyes.

You have now brought up the bible and its teachings. I think the bible is full of wonderful teachings and wisdom. But what about those who can't read? What about those who don't have and never will have access to a bible? How are they supposed to access those soul-saving teachings, and know what constitutes sin?

1.) Honestly, I could care less what you do. I believe in freedom.

2.) Your last line answered your question.

 

[JZVOL]

What if one doesn't think they did do wrong? We live in a world that's described as being "morally relative" by christians. Right there shows that we all don't agree on what's wrong. Do you think DC vol or myself think we are doing wrong by exercising our God-given reasoning abilities right now? I think I can safely speak for both of us and say we don't. And yet I know that we are skirting the lines of blasphemy, in some people's eyes.

You have now brought up the bible and its teachings. I think the bible is full of wonderful teachings and wisdom. But what about those who can't read? What about those who don't have and never will have access to a bible? How are they supposed to access those soul-saving teachings, and know what constitutes sin?

The thief next to Jesus never read a Bible or followed a rule yet he is in Heaven with Christ.

 

[DC Vol]

Again, if God knew all of this beforehand, I doubt he would have bestowed upon us the truth of creation... as we obviously couldn't handle it. It's like giving a known serial killer a gun and asking him/her to go on a walk alone in the woods far from civilization. Man has consistently proven to use the Bible (and it's worthwhile teachings) as a tool of corruption and mind-control.

 

[IPorange]

1.) Honestly, I could care less what you do. I believe in freedom.

2.) Your last line answered your question.

Total deflection. Me knowing that someone else thinks I am doing something wrong doesn't mean I think I am doing wrong, or more importantly that I AM doing wrong.

Also, we are having a disconnect about this choice thing. I am saying with an omniscient and omnipotent being, time is a fixed series of events that can be changed, and can also be seen throughout it's length with perfect clarity. Therefore, choices are already made, and the reasons for making that choice are perfectly known. A sequence of events would lead to the decision, right or wrong. If those sequence of events were changed, the decision outcome would be different. Thus, how can one be faulted for making a wrong choice when the creator being was in complete control of the situation?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[IPorange]

The thief next to Jesus never read a Bible or followed a rule yet he is in Heaven with Christ.

I am pretty sure virtually everyone else who hasn't read a bible or followed a rule didn't get a chance to hang next to Christ, so I think that deflates your point a bit. The world is a lot bigger than Israel, Europe and the Western Hemisphere, and the last 2,000 years. The vast majority of the humans who ever lived never heard any of the judeo-christianic traditions. I guess they are all in hell.

 

[DC Vol]

I am pretty sure virtually everyone else who hasn't read a bible or followed a rule didn't get a chance to hang next to Christ, so I think that deflates your point a bit. The world is a lot bigger than Israel, Europe and the Western Hemisphere, and the last 2,000 years. The vast majority of the humans who ever lived never heard any of the judeo-christianic traditions. I guess they are all in hell.

I heard they will get a chance to not exercise free will, but to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior at the Gates.

If they do, they're in.
If they don't, they go to Hell.


That's from a Southern Baptist though. That was the question right before my question that got me kicked out of the girls house. I know how to make an impression I guess.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Again, if God knew all of this beforehand, I doubt he would have bestowed upon us the truth of creation... as we obviously couldn't handle it. It's like giving a known serial killer a gun and asking him/her to go on a walk alone in the woods far from civilization. Man has consistently proven to use the Bible (and it's worthwhile teachings) as a tool of corruption and mind-control.

Government, science, etc.....

:hi:

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Total deflection. Me knowing that someone else thinks I am doing something wrong doesn't mean I think I am doing wrong, or more importantly that I AM doing wrong.

Also, we are having a disconnect about this choice thing. I am saying with an omniscient and omnipotent being, time is a fixed series of events that can be changed, and can also be seen throughout it's length with perfect clarity. Therefore, choices are already made, and the reasons for making that choice are perfectly known. A sequence of events would lead to the decision, right or wrong. If those sequence of events were changed, the decision outcome would be different. Thus, how can one be faulted for making a wrong choice when the creator being was in complete control of the situation?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

1.) Deflection? Your business is none of my concern.

2.) Right, it is called the Matrix.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

I heard they will get a chance to not exercise free will, but to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior at the Gates.

If they do, they're in.
If they don't, they go to Hell.


That's from a Southern Baptist though. That was the question right before my question that got me kicked out of the girls house. I know how to make an impression I guess.

That would be me and that is not any thing consistent with the Southern Baptist Church.

 

[DC Vol]

That would be me and that is not any thing consistent with the Southern Baptist Church.

So where can you draw the line between what God said and what Man has distorted?

 

[DC Vol]

Government, science, etc.....

:hi:

Not arguing for government (as most were products of religion and still are).

Science on the other hand hasn't been the focal point of any wars as far as I'm aware. Science has been used, sure, but wasn't the root cause.

 

[JZVOL]

I am pretty sure virtually everyone else who hasn't read a bible or followed a rule didn't get a chance to hang next to Christ, so I think that deflates your point a bit. The world is a lot bigger than Israel, Europe and the Western Hemisphere, and the last 2,000 years. The vast majority of the humans who ever lived never heard any of the judeo-christianic traditions. I guess they are all in hell.

Deut. 2:29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul."

The problem with you guys is you are blaming God for everything instead of yourselves.

What if God revealed himself to all the cultures of the world and they rejected Him and the Jews were the only ones who didn't?

 

[OrangeEmpire]

So where can you draw the line between what God said and what Man has distorted?

It is impossible, why?

All I have talked about is choice or better yet using your own conscious to come to a conclusion.

I am the son of a long line of preachers and every other person in my family is a preacher.

I have heard non sense all of my life. I never truly understood the Bible until I had a personal relationship to whatever you want to call God.

That is when I understood.....

 

[DC Vol]

Deut. 2:29 But from there you will seek the LORD your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul."

The problem with you guys is you are blaming God for everything instead of yourselves.

What if God revealed himself to all the cultures of the world and they rejected Him and the Jews were the only ones who didn't?

When have I blamed God for anything?

 

[JZVOL]

I heard they will get a chance to not exercise free will, but to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior at the Gates.

If they do, they're in.
If they don't, they go to Hell.


That's from a Southern Baptist though. That was the question right before my question that got me kicked out of the girls house. I know how to make an impression I guess.

I would say you know how to be disrespectful in someone's home.