Debt ceiling: here we go AGAIN

[InVOLuntary]

Doesn't that make you feel dirty?

Lol. Agreeing with me or paying the man?

 

[hog88]

Lol. Agreeing with me or paying the man?

Hmmmm???

Paying the man of course.

 

[Orangeburst]

The $1T coin is possibly the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard on this subject.

Dude I just googled it and cannot believe how much talk there is about doing it
Even making mainstream

 

[hUTch2002]

Dude I just googled it and cannot believe how much talk there is about doing it
Even making mainstream

I keep seeing things and thinking that surely people aren’t this dumb but then I switch over to the threads about the vaccine and COVID and I’m quickly reminded that yes people are this dumb.

 

[AshG]

But allowing the govt to take that money and attempt a perverted version of trickle down is preferable?

Never said that. I trust Government about as much as I trust my daughter with a carton of ice cream. Actually, less. And that's saying something.

 

[landscapingvol]

Never said that. I trust Government about as much as I trust my daughter with a carton of ice cream. Actually, less. And that's saying something.

The problem with increasing taxes on businesses and the wealthy is they will find ways to get around it or pass the expense on to the employees/consumers. The problem with cutting taxes on businesses and the wealthy is it makes them wealthier/more profitable and they don't always pass the increase in revenues on to their employees/customers. With that in mind, the trickle down economics theory is more beneficial to the middle class because it doesn't generally harm them and can be beneficial. The problem with increasing taxes on businesses and the wealthy is it almost always harms the middle class and generally only benefits the poor in increasing social programs/spending. Trickle down economics may not increase the size of the middle class dramatically or increase wages in a meaningful way across the economy, but in the long run it isn't harmful to the middle class other than decreased government revenues. There is little to no benefit to the middle class in increasing taxes on businesses and the wealthy other than in the minds of millions of voters.

 

[InVOLuntary]

The problem with increasing taxes on businesses and the wealthy is they will find ways to get around it or pass the expense on to the employees/consumers. The problem with cutting taxes on businesses and the wealthy is it makes them wealthier/more profitable and they don't always pass the increase in revenues on to their employees/customers. With that in mind, the trickle down economics theory is more beneficial to the middle class because it doesn't generally harm them and can be beneficial. The problem with increasing taxes on businesses and the wealthy is it almost always harms the middle class and generally only benefits the poor in increasing social programs/spending. Trickle down economics may not increase the size of the middle class dramatically or increase wages in a meaningful way across the economy, but in the long run it isn't harmful to the middle class other than decreased government revenues. There is little to no benefit to the middle class in increasing taxes on businesses and the wealthy other than in the minds of millions of voters.

I've said this before but I think it warrants repeating, corporations pay zero taxes. You can raise taxes to 50% and they won't pay a penny. The consumer of that company's products pay those taxes. Taxes are a line item. It's added to the cost of doing business.

 

[Tin Man]

Love the self righteous ignorance in this post.

Both parties have abandoned any semblance of fiscal responsibility.

You are confused, at best. Delusional, at worst. Allow me to help you.

1. Paragraph one. Yes, Reagan cut taxes. He also did not veto massive spending increases. In fact, increased spending was part of his platform. The economy grew robustly, tax revenues increased.

2. Paragraph two. Rs are have no moral ground on which to stand re deficits and debt. And neither do Ds. Rs give lip service to debt. Ds give lip service to tax policy and its impact on revenue.

3. Paragraph three. Tax revenues have increased every year except for years where the economy took a hit. Housing crisis, and Covid response are the two most recent. Tax revenues are poorly correlated with tax policy. GDP is most correlated with tax revenue. Additionally, America is on pace to spend 9T-10T dollars this year (federal, state and local). There has never been in our history more money for more programs than there is right now.

4. Paragraph four. Rs are playing politics. Both sides do this. The last time this game was played in earnest was under Clinton. Gingrich held the Congress. It was also the only time spending decreased (slightly and breifly) and additional debt wasn't added.

5. Paragraph 5. Default and ensuing hyperinflation is the fault of both parties, all branches of government, and the American people who want their sacred cows fattened no matter what.

No candidate from either of the major 2 parties has helped the situation. We are destined for default unless some unique never-before-attempted accounting tricks staves off the inevitable.

You're welcome.

That was one of the most polite spankings I have ever witnessed. I'm impressed.

hog88, you keep on being you. We won't hold out any hope. If there's good whisky at your wake, we'll drink to you.

McDad, your post reminds me of my son-in-law who deflects any disappointment with the Republican party. Like you, he'll characterize as "delusional" anyone calling to account Republican actions. Stop throwing Democrats at me. That's the tactic of Republican apologists, and in past discourse, you've given me cause to expect better from you.

 

[McDad]

hog88, you keep on being you. We won't hold out any hope. If there's good whisky at your wake, we'll drink to you.

McDad, your post reminds me of my son-in-law who deflects any disappointment with the Republican party. Like you, he'll characterize as "delusional" anyone calling to account Republican actions. Stop throwing Democrats at me. That's the tactic of Republican apologists, and in past discourse, you've given me cause to expect better from you.

Anyone who looks at our situation as unilateral, begs to be reminded that it takes two to tango.

Refute the points if you find fault. Refuting me or my approach isn't making your delusion any better.

 

[LouderVol]

hog88, you keep on being you. We won't hold out any hope. If there's good whisky at your wake, we'll drink to you.

McDad, your post reminds me of my son-in-law who deflects any disappointment with the Republican party. Like you, he'll characterize as "delusional" anyone calling to account Republican actions. Stop throwing Democrats at me. That's the tactic of Republican apologists, and in past discourse, you've given me cause to expect better from you.

Did you ignore his first two points? They were blaming the Rs. So I am not sure what deflection you are talking about. He gave enough of an anti R response to have a conversation on. The fact that you are ignoring them is telling.

 

[Tin Man]

Anyone who looks at our situation as unilateral, begs to be reminded that it takes two to tango.

Refute the points if you find fault. Refuting me or my approach isn't making your delusion any better.

My disappointment with the Republican party is based upon their actions. They have enacted tax policy which favors the consolidation of wealth and slows the growth in revenues. They have not constrained spending, nor have they made any attempt to fix the structural deficits in the Federal budget. When they've held power in Congress and the White House, they've raised the debt ceiling without contention. When in a minority position, they've threatened to allow the US to default (a tactic the Democrats have not used when in a minority position). I decry this behavior. That doesn't make me delusional. While you appear enthralled with the current milieu and willing to excuse Republican behavior in contextual arguments, I lament conservatism being turned on its ear and wish for a correction in the party's platform and direction. Even if you don't agree with my wishes, I'd think you'd be sympathetic to my lament.

 

[hog88]

hog88, you keep on being you. We won't hold out any hope. If there's good whisky at your wake, we'll drink to you.

McDad, your post reminds me of my son-in-law who deflects any disappointment with the Republican party. Like you, he'll characterize as "delusional" anyone calling to account Republican actions. Stop throwing Democrats at me. That's the tactic of Republican apologists, and in past discourse, you've given me cause to expect better from you.

Typical liberal, only going to show up if something is free.

I do appreciate the thoughtfulness but you are missing the point. Both parties need to held to account, we didn’t get here because of Republicans or Democrats by themselves, we didn’t get here because of the policies of 1 POTUS.

 

[hog88]

My disappointment with the Republican party is based upon their actions. They have enacted tax policy which favors the consolidation of wealth and slows the growth in revenues. They have not constrained spending, nor have they made any attempt to fix the structural deficits in the Federal budget. When they've held power in Congress and the White House, they've raised the debt ceiling without contention. When in a minority position, they've threatened to allow the US to default (a tactic the Democrats have not used when in a minority position). I decry this behavior. That doesn't make me delusional. While you appear enthralled with the current milieu and willing to excuse Republican behavior in contextual arguments, I lament conservatism being turned on its ear and wish for a correction in the party's platform and direction. Even if you don't agree with my wishes, I'd think you'd be sympathetic to my lament.

You should probably do some research and lay off MSNBC. The Democrats are equally guilty if not more-so in passing legislation that favors the rich, the dems far outpace the Rs in Wall-street fundraising and typically people don’t fund politicians without expecting something in return. Seriously ask yourself when was the last time the Dems passed tax legislation that favored the low-middle class?

Also you couldn’t be more wrong on the Dems using the government shutdown tactic. They have used it more than the Rs.

List of United States federal funding gaps - Wikipedia

 

[McDad]

My disappointment with the Republican party is based upon their actions. They have enacted tax policy which favors the consolidation of wealth and slows the growth in revenues. They have not constrained spending, nor have they made any attempt to fix the structural deficits in the Federal budget. When they've held power in Congress and the White House, they've raised the debt ceiling without contention. When in a minority position, they've threatened to allow the US to default (a tactic the Democrats have not used when in a minority position). I decry this behavior. That doesn't make me delusional. While you appear enthralled with the current milieu and willing to excuse Republican behavior in contextual arguments, I lament conservatism being turned on its ear and wish for a correction in the party's platform and direction. Even if you don't agree with my wishes, I'd think you'd be sympathetic to my lament.

This dialogue began with you making declarative statements about your perspective. I offered some facts to help elevate your understanding. This dialogue, unfortunately, is becoming you making declarative statements about my perspective. The problem with those declarations, you haven't asked me to explain so you can understand my thoughts BEFORE you made statements about my thoughts.

Revenues have grown every year except for years where the economy has stalled. Those revenues occurred under both R and D presidents, and houses. The Rs are notoriously corrupt when comparing their rhetoric to their actions. The Ds don't even bother with rhetoric but have equally disdainful actions re debt and deficits.

If you took the opportunity to read what I and others post about debt and deficits, you'd find much more in common than you find in contention. The problem is using the one-party rule to your lamentations because that dog will not hunt.

 

[Tin Man]

Typical liberal, only going to show up if something is free.

I do appreciate the thoughtfulness but you are missing the point. Both parties need to held to account, we didn’t get here because of Republicans or Democrats by themselves, we didn’t get here because of the policies of 1 POTUS.

You should probably do some research and lay off MSNBC. The Democrats are equally guilty if not more-so in passing legislation that favors the rich, the dems far outpace the Rs in Wall-street fundraising and typically people don’t fund politicians without expecting something in return. Seriously ask yourself when was the last time the Dems passed tax legislation that favored the low-middle class?

Also you couldn’t be more wrong on the Dems using the government shutdown tactic. They have used it more than the Rs.

List of United States federal funding gaps - Wikipedia

Misconstruing what I’ve posted doesn’t recommend whatever arguments you’re trying to make. I’ve not mentioned shutdowns. I’ve posted specifically about actions or the lack thereof which would cause the Federal Government to default on debt.

Oh, and I’m not a Liberal (you need to understand the definition and historical context), nor do I watch msnbc.

 

[hog88]

Misconstruing what I’ve posted doesn’t recommend whatever arguments you’re trying to make. I’ve not mentioned shutdowns. I’ve posted specifically about actions or the lack thereof which would cause the Federal Government to default on debt.

Oh, and I’m not a Liberal (you need to understand the definition and historical context), nor do I watch msnbc.

Now you have me totally confused. It would take a shutdown for us to default on our debt and that debt has been accumulated by both parties.

BTW you haven't posted anything specific, just finger pointing generalities. When @McDad confronted you with specifics you punted.

 

[volinbham]

the dirty secret about the debt ceiling is that debt is first in line to be paid (I believe Constitutionally). we have enough revenue coming in to service the debt so default should never be the threat. the threat is that some of our existing programs will NOT receive funding if we don't raise the debt ceiling and no one wants to cut anything even if temporarily.

we have plenty of money to pay the debt

 

[Tin Man]

This dialogue began with you making declarative statements about your perspective. I offered some facts to help elevate your understanding. This dialogue, unfortunately, is becoming you making declarative statements about my perspective. The problem with those declarations, you haven't asked me to explain so you can understand my thoughts BEFORE you made statements about my thoughts.

Revenues have grown every year except for years where the economy has stalled. Those revenues occurred under both R and D presidents, and houses. The Rs are notoriously corrupt when comparing their rhetoric to their actions. The Ds don't even bother with rhetoric but have equally disdainful actions re debt and deficits.

If you took the opportunity to read what I and others post about debt and deficits, you'd find much more in common than you find in contention. The problem is using the one-party rule to your lamentations because that dog will not hunt.

I express my disappointment with the Republicans because I’m feeling it intently. My lament is internal to the Republican Party and does not require the context you attempt to impose. The dog trees the raccoon.

If and when I’m motivated to call out the Democratic Party, I’ll be sure to @you. The Democrats are messy and often self-defeating. Their change during the post-WWII period may merit a good rant, but they never embraced then abandoned the principal of fiscal responsibility. They’ve not shredded one of my core values, abandoning me in the process. They’re just… Democrats.

 

[Tin Man]

Now you have me totally confused. It would take a shutdown for us to default on our debt and that debt has been accumulated by both parties.

BTW you haven't posted anything specific, just finger pointing generalities. When @McDad confronted you with specifics you punted.

As you yourself referenced, there have been numerous shutdowns without default. Of the two political parties, only members of the Republican Party have declared that the impending default of the Federal government will not move them from their position. I don’t know if you were alive back then, but there was a time when principals were strong enough that no Republican would contemplate default, much less use it for leverage.

 

[McDad]

I express my disappointment with the Republicans because I’m feeling it intently. My lament is internal to the Republican Party and does not require the context you attempt to impose. The dog trees the raccoon.

If and when I’m motivated to call out the Democratic Party, I’ll be sure to @you. The Democrats are messy and often self-defeating. Their change during the post-WWII period may merit a good rant, but they never embraced then abandoned the principal of fiscal responsibility. They’ve not shredded one of my core values, abandoning me in the process. They’re just… Democrats.

You don't have to @ me. I am aware of their corruption. I am an equal opportunity loather.

I find your characterizations very humorous. Rs are (my words based on your posts): hoarders, hypocrites, liars, abandoning principles, devoted to the wealthy, disingenuous. Ds are: messy and self defeating. Way to eviscerate them, TM.

Rs and true Conservatives are gone. I don't think we will ever get them back. It is why I gave up my hope in that party and accepted reality. Third parties cannot get a footing. Ds have only preached the gospel of coveting. We are on the path to destruction (if not past the tipping point already).

 

[Tin Man]

For the record, I consider @McDad an astute debater. I don’t dismiss others because we disagree.

Oh, and I’m not going to declare you delusional because you lament a change within an organization important to you.

 

[Tin Man]

Should have refreshed the page before posting.

 

[McDad]

For the record, I consider @McDad an astute debater. I don’t dismiss others because we disagree.

Oh, and I’m not going to declare you delusional because you lament a change within an organization important to you.

That's nicer than what others call me...Master deBater.

 

[McDad]

@Tin Man
Do you want the Rs to fight debt ceilings at all times in opposition to any president or party?
Or, do you want Rs to fight debt ceilings against R presidents and agree to increased debt under D presidents?

 

[hog88]

As you yourself referenced, there have been numerous shutdowns without default. Of the two political parties, only members of the Republican Party have declared that the impending default of the Federal government will not move them from their position. I don’t know if you were alive back then, but there was a time when principals were strong enough that no Republican would contemplate default, much less use it for leverage.

I was alive October 1990 when the Democrat controlled house did just that. It was resolved when Bush I went back on his word and agreed to tax increases.

Besides none of them are going to allow us to default, it's just bluster. Don't be so dramatic.