Debt Limit Bottom Line

#255
#255
lawgator1 said:
but the mainstream GOP is terrified of the unyielding TPers.
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You can try to marginalize them as nothing more than a vocal minority all you want, but if the TPer's agenda wasn't a mainstream viewpoint, the GOP wouldn't be listening in the first place.
 
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#256
#256
For all the tough talk, I'm still thinking that Obama needs the deal more than the GOP does.
 
#257
#257
GAVol said:
For all the tough talk, I'm still thinking that Obama needs the deal more than the GOP does.
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I see it the othe way.
GOP needs to deal.
The ceiling will be raised, deal or no deal.
Neither party will take the hit for us defaulting.
All Obama has to do to increase revenue is to let the Bush tax cuts expire next year.
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#258
#258
Gramps said:
I see it the othe way.
GOP needs to deal.
The ceiling will be raised, deal or no deal.
Neither party will take the hit for us defaulting.
All Obama has to do to increase revenue is to let the Bush tax cuts expire next year.
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I can't imagine that either party is going to roll the dice and see what happens. At the very least they'll go with a temporary solution and kick the can down the road a few months.
 
#259
#259
S&P talking now about a downgrade coming as soon as Monday (Charlie Gasparino).Ruh Roh..Makes for a fun trading day Monday.
 
#263
#263
Gramps said:
Yes, along with the President.
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He has a role - sign or veto. However, the power of taxation lies with Congress.

He can't do anything on taxes without Congress. They can legislate taxation with or without him depending on how many feel the same way about the issue.
 
#264
#264
volinbham said:
He has a role - sign or veto. However, the power of taxation lies with Congress.

He can't do anything on taxes without Congress. They can legislate taxation with or without him depending on how many feel the same way about the issue.
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That was my point , he has option to sign or veto.
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#265
#265
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every_time_a_democrat_is_right_a_unicorn_is_born.jpg
 
#267
#267
Gramps said:
I see it the othe way.
GOP needs to deal.
The ceiling will be raised, deal or no deal.
Neither party will take the hit for us defaulting.
All Obama has to do to increase revenue is to let the Bush tax cuts expire next year.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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That depends on whether Obama and his friends in the media can spin it or if the GOP finally figures out how to play politics.

Has Obama proposed a plan? No. Did Obama run up incredible debt with the failed stimulus package and other non-sense? Yes.

Has Obama "negotiated" in good faith? No. He has hosted negotiations. They seem to have gone something along these lines:

GOP- Here's our plan, let's see yours so we can start negotiating specific cuts and maybe where we can clean up the tax code some.

Obama- my plan is that everything is on the table... I want a grand plan.

GOP- OK. What does that plan include so we can start negotiating the details.

Obama- it is a grand plan. Everything is on the table. My plan could cut as much as $3 trillion for spending but I want a $1 trillion tax increase to start next year.

GOP- well we're not doing tax increases but if you'll put your plan on the table then maybe we can negotiate some code simplifications that will give you part of what you want and then work on the actual budget cuts.

Obama- I told you what my plan was.

GOP- What?

Obama- everything is on the table.

GOP- OK. Here's our plan. Let's start from there.

Obama- no. I don't like that plan. It actually cuts spending and doesn't raise taxes.

GOP- But you said everything was on the table?

Obama- Everything is on the table. I want a grand plan.

GOP- (exasperated) OK. Here's another plan.

Obama- Nope. Don't like that one either.

GOP- What don't you like about it?

Obama- Not grand enough.

Cantor- OK Mr President. Let's be honest. You do not have a plan, do you? You are not negotiating in good faith. You want us to come up with various plans so you can reject them all and demagogue the issue.

What you really want is for us to give you "your" plan so that if it succeeds you can take credit and if it fails you can blame us.

Obama- "YOU DON'T CALL MY BLUFF. I'M THE PRESIDENT. YOU DON'T GET TO CALL MY BLUFF. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE!!!!" (storming out of the room like a child pitching a tantrum)
 
#268
#268
volinbham said:
How can he do that? It's a congressional function.
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He can refuse to sign the bill or hold it hostage while demanding the cuts for the "rich" are taken out. The MSM will help him pin failure to extend the other cuts on the GOP.

It has been a long time since our Constitutional division of power meant very much in DC.
 
#269
#269
sjt18 said:
That depends on whether Obama and his friends in the media can spin it or if the GOP finally figures out how to play politics.

Has Obama proposed a plan? No.

Yes, he has. Several in fact. And just a few weeks ago with specific $600 billion in cuts to Medicare. The claim that he has not ever proposed a specific plan is a Republican lie.

Did Obama run up incredible debt with the failed stimulus package and other non-sense? Yes.

The stimulus, as you know, is a special situation. At least the bulk of it, anyway. Was there excess? Sure. But a small fraction of the excess under the Bush presidency. You need to stop trying to manufacture this as Obama's fault, because it simply isn't.
Has Obama "negotiated" in good faith? No.

He has offered the GOP a large number of the major components to their various plans -- and pissed off his own base in doing so. But he has insisted on tax increases on the wealthy, as well. The GOP just keeps demanding more and more and, whenever Obama has conceded something, the GOP has then asked for more.

Its not that Boehner is personally acting in bad faith. Its that every time they cobble the outline of something together, the lunatic right wing fringe comes in and shoots it down. Then Boehner has to go back hat in hand and ask for more, or different.

Witness McCain on the floor last night. Tea Party hobbits. LOL. So true.


He has hosted negotiations. They seem to have gone something along these lines:

GOP- Here's our plan, let's see yours so we can start negotiating specific cuts and maybe where we can clean up the tax code some.

True.


Obama- my plan is that everything is on the table... I want a grand plan.

False. He says okay let's do these cuts with these tax increases on the very top.

GOP- OK. What does that plan include so we can start negotiating the details.

False. He has said what he would do.

Obama- it is a grand plan. Everything is on the table. My plan could cut as much as $3 trillion for spending but I want a $1 trillion tax increase to start next year.


Somewhat false. Not "could." Would. I am not going to let you get away with the false claim that the proposed cuts would not have occurred. They were real. To cover for their refusal to allow taxes on their wealthy benefactors to go up, thereby exposing them for being the in-place lobbyists that they are for the top 1 %, they have concocted the fabrication that Obama did not oppose actual cuts. He did.

GOP- well we're not doing tax increases

True

but if you'll put your plan on the table then maybe we can negotiate some code simplifications that will give you part of what you want and then work on the actual budget cuts.


False. First, the plan was on the table. Several, in fact. Second, "tax reform" means increasing taxes on the lower middle class and the poor, and decreasing taxes on the owners of the GOP.



Obama- I told you what my plan was.

He did.

GOP- What?

Lie.

Obama- everything is on the table.

He was specific.

GOP- OK. Here's our plan. Let's start from there.

If you said "start and end there," I'd say correct.

Obama- no. I don't like that plan. It actually cuts spending and doesn't raise taxes.

False.

GOP- But you said everything was on the table?

Based on false premise.


Obama- Everything is on the table. I want a grand plan.

It was and he offered several. With specifics. The claim that he did not is demonstrably false. Another Republican lie.


GOP- (exasperated) OK. Here's another plan.

Somewhat true. But the exasperation is actually based on the deep fractures within the GOP, itself.


Obama- Nope. Don't like that one either.

Oversimplification.


GOP- What don't you like about it?


Obama- Not grand enough.

Cantor- OK Mr President. Let's be honest. You do not have a plan, do you? You are not negotiating in good faith. You want us to come up with various plans so you can reject them all and demagogue the issue.

What you really want is for us to give you "your" plan so that if it succeeds you can take credit and if it fails you can blame us.

Utter crap. Cantor's only interest is in upstaging Boehner. This is all about forcing the TP agenda onto mainstream Republicans.

See e.g. McCain last night.


Obama- "YOU DON'T CALL MY BLUFF. I'M THE PRESIDENT. YOU DON'T GET TO CALL MY BLUFF. WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE!!!!" (storming out of the room like a child pitching a tantrum)

False. Obama walked out at one point (compared to several by Boehner and Cantor) to express his dismay at the bad faith tactics of the GOP and his disappointment that the opportunity here to help save the country's economic future is being squandered by right wing nutjobs who are buying into their own tripe.
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McCain: The TP members of the House have no clue what they are doing. They do not understand how the process works and are putting all sorts of standard GOP mantra crap into play, like balanced budget amendment conditions, etc.

That stuff is so Contract on America vintage garbage. So unsophisticated. Pathetic.

Tea Party Hobbits, indeed!
 
#270
#270
please outline the "real cuts" that would occur at the same time as the tax increases. That means they can't be a promise to cut spending 10 years from now and don't include ending operations in the ME
 
#271
#271
utvolpj said:
please outline the "real cuts" that would occur at the same time as the tax increases. That means they can't be a promise to cut spending 10 years from now and don't include ending operations in the ME
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Here ya' go. He even included a trigger for across the board cuts in most programs in case the cuts did not materialize! Sound familiar? It should. That has been a major GOP plan component for quite some time.


Obama Plan To Cut Deficit | Obama deficit: Obama plan would cut deficit by $4 trillion - Los Angeles Times
 
#272
#272
wow he's giving the republicans everything they want. damn the tea party and god bless barack obama!
 
#273
#273
The link is also from April and lists nothing specific. What has he proposed since serious debt limit talks started that would cut entitlement programs?
 
#274
#274
lawgator1 said:
Here ya' go. He even included a trigger for across the board cuts in most programs in case the cuts did not materialize! Sound familiar? It should. That has been a major GOP plan component for quite some time.


Obama Plan To Cut Deficit | Obama deficit: Obama plan would cut deficit by $4 trillion - Los Angeles Times
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PJ made this comment already but this is from April and is not specific. It does not contain cuts to SS and Medicare (eventhough he's claimed he's gonna catch heat for this from the Dems).

Also, it lacks specificity so CBO cannot score it. The CBO score in the article is from his original budget which got voted down 97-0 in the Senate.

Try again.
 
#275
#275
A perfect example from the "plan" posted above:

Obama's plan leans most heavily on his deficit commission in its recommendation for a major overhaul of the U.S. tax code. Obama, who has already proposed in next year's budget to allow the Bush-era tax cuts to expire, offered no specific plan but called for eventually adopting a new system that "is fair and simple — so that the amount of taxes you pay isn't determined by what kind of accountant you can afford."
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Awesome. To summarize - I'm for cutting things and making the tax system more fair. I figure I can get about a trillion from this general area and maybe 1/2 trillion from over there. Balance!
 
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