Derek Chauvin trial

[n_huffhines]

But we agree his force used this same hold nearly 50 times over the last 5 years or so (going over memory but I believe the exact number was 44 since 2016)?

Do we also agree that the defense presented images from local training protocols showing the same hold being used?

IDK anything about it. I'm barely paying attention to the trial.

 

[Vol8188]

IDK anything about it. I'm barely paying attention to the trial.

Here’s a link to news report from almost a year ago showing the police department training (the image is from the video at the top of the first link)

The second link is an NBC piece from this summer about the number of times the restraint has been used.

MPD training shows neck restraint similar to that used on Floyd | kare11.com


Minneapolis police made 44 people unconscious with neck restraints

 

[n_huffhines]

Here’s a link to news report from almost a year ago showing the police department training (the image is from the video at the top of the first link)

The second link is an NBC piece from this summer about the number of times the restraint has been used.

MPD training shows neck restraint similar to that used on Floyd | kare11.com

Minneapolis police made 44 people unconscious with neck restraints

It doesn't surprise me at all that cops would use this sort of restraint, or abuse it, as is implied by the article.

I'm not sure the fact that it's taught is going to save Chauvin. There are circumstances where it's fine to club a resisting felon but if you don't know he's a felon for sure and you club him for 8 minutes until he dies, then the fact that you were trained to club should not save you.

I hope Chauvin goes down and that Lane is exonerated.

 

[Vol8188]

It doesn't surprise me at all that cops would use this sort of restraint, or abuse it, as is implied by the article.

I'm not sure the fact that it's taught is going to save Chauvin. There are circumstances where it's fine to club a resisting felon but if you don't know he's a felon for sure and you club him for 8 minutes until he dies, then the fact that you were trained to club should not save you.

I hope Chauvin goes down and that Lane is exonerated.

We agree he resisted, correct? If so, restraining him was the correct move. Also hard to say Chauvin’s action killed Floyd given he couldn’t breathe before their encounter and had taken a lethal dose of an opioid.

With that said, I do actually support Chauvin being convicted of assault and manslaughter because the protocol also says he’s to move the person into the recovery position once the person is restrained. That obviously never happened.

But the calls for murder charges are insane and based in nothing more than emotion

 

[lawgator1]

We agree he resisted, correct? If so, restraining him was the correct move. Also hard to say Chauvin’s action killed Floyd given he couldn’t breathe before their encounter and had taken a lethal dose of an opioid.

With that said, I do actually support Chauvin being convicted of assault and manslaughter because the protocol also says he’s to move the person into the recovery position once the person is restrained. That obviously never happened.

But the calls for murder charges are insane and based in nothing more than emotion

I tend to agree. The issue here is not the INITIAL use of restraint, even the knee on his neck. It's that it SUBSEQUENTLY was unnecessary and therefore excessive.

And I think Chauvin's problem is that unlike a lot of cases I deal with it wasn't a split second or a few seconds where it's a legitimate judgment call. It clearly went well past the point it was necessary.

 

[n_huffhines]

We agree he resisted, correct? If so, restraining him was the correct move. Also hard to say Chauvin’s action killed Floyd given he couldn’t breathe before their encounter and had taken a lethal dose of an opioid.

With that said, I do actually support Chauvin being convicted of assault and manslaughter because the protocol also says he’s to move the person into the recovery position once the person is restrained. That obviously never happened.

But the calls for murder charges are insane and based in nothing more than emotion

I do not know that he resisted, at least in any meaningful way. It may have happened when there was a blind spot in the footage.

 

[Vol8188]

I tend to agree. The issue here is not the INITIAL use of restraint, even the knee on his neck. It's that it SUBSEQUENTLY was unnecessary and therefore excessive.

And I think Chauvin's problem is that unlike a lot of cases I deal with it wasn't a split second or a few seconds where it's a legitimate judgment call. It clearly went well past the point it was necessary.

Interesting to find the two of us on common ground. Do you agree manslaughter to be the most appropriate charge?

 

[rjd970]

I tend to agree. The issue here is not the INITIAL use of restraint, even the knee on his neck. It's that it SUBSEQUENTLY was unnecessary and therefore excessive.

And I think Chauvin's problem is that unlike a lot of cases I deal with it wasn't a split second or a few seconds where it's a legitimate judgment call. It clearly went well past the point it was necessary.

Yep. And lets be honest, add in once he is prone on the ground and handcuffed, with other officers just steps away, it becomes even less necessary. He wasn't going anywhere in a hurry.

Floyd is the absolute worst character to hold up as some martyr...but that doesn't make what Chauvin did any less infuriating. It just reeks of a power tripping bully.

 

[Vol8188]

I do not know that he resisted, at least in any meaningful way. It may have happened when there was a blind spot in the footage.

I don’t see the resisting as up for debate. They tried multiple times to get him to go into the police car and he refused by making an absurd claim of claustrophobia (despite have been removed from a smaller vehicle). They were very patient with him and even offered to lower the window if it would help him. He still refused to get in.

At one point he even kicks at (not sure if it landed) an officer.

 

[Vol8188]

Yep. And lets be honest, add in once he is prone on the ground and handcuffed, with other officers just steps away, it becomes even less necessary. He wasn't going anywhere in a hurry.

Floyd is the absolute worst character to hold up as some martyr...but that doesn't make what Chauvin did any less infuriating. It just reeks of a power tripping bully.

That’s been weird for me. This saint floyd worship. The man was a junkie who robbed a black mother at gun point and had overdosed within weeks of his death.

Doesn’t justify any action of Chauvin, but it’s still gross to see the false narratives and outright lies. Like the post from politico I posted earlier today or the police chief openly lying about the use of neck restraints despite how well documented it’s been

 

[lawgator1]

Interesting to find the two of us on common ground. Do you agree manslaughter to be the most appropriate charge?

Yes. And I admit I only looked at he second degree manslaughter statute for Minnesota (because it came up here awhile back) and it seemed to me to fit. Here it is:

609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:


(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or

Yep. And lets be honest, add in once he is prone on the ground and handcuffed, with other officers just steps away, it becomes even less necessary. He wasn't going anywhere in a hurry.

Floyd is the absolute worst character to hold up as some martyr...but that doesn't make what Chauvin did any less infuriating. It just reeks of a power tripping bully.

I've been surprised by the extent to which character of Floyd, good and bad, has made its way into the trial. Seems odd to me but I assume it was argued and ruled upon before in the case, before the coverage.

 

[Vol737]

Yes. And I admit I only looked at he second degree manslaughter statute for Minnesota (because it came up here awhile back) and it seemed to me to fit. Here it is:

609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:


(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or





I've been surprised by the extent to which character of Floyd, good and bad, has made its way into the trial. Seems odd to me but I assume it was argued and ruled upon before in the case, before the coverage.

Just sat down for a late lunch watching some of this trial. I think the above verbiage you posted is why I’ve thought from the beginning Chauvin gets manslaughter. That won’t be enough to quell the outrage when the verdict is read, however.

 

[SamRebel35]

Yes. And I admit I only looked at he second degree manslaughter statute for Minnesota (because it came up here awhile back) and it seemed to me to fit. Here it is:

609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:


(1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or





I've been surprised by the extent to which character of Floyd, good and bad, has made its way into the trial. Seems odd to me but I assume it was argued and ruled upon before in the case, before the coverage.

Based on that definition of manslaughter, I don't see how Chauvin avoids that one. It seems like the most likely outcome. It will be seen as "too lenient" by BLM and the professional protestor types. It'll be the summer of "mostly peaceful" protests all over again.

 

[lawgator1]

As Chauvin has no record, i would think he'd be sentenced mid range on it and end up actually serving something like 3-4 years.

 

[Ttucke11]

Based on that definition of manslaughter, I don't see how Chauvin avoids that one. It seems like the most likely outcome. It will be seen as "too lenient" by BLM and the professional protestor types. It'll be the summer of "mostly peaceful" protests all over again.

Honestly, they wouldn't be satisfied unless they all got to give him lashings in the middle of the street until dead. Nothing will ever be enough to these anarchist, psychopaths.

 

[VolStrom]

As Chauvin has no record, i would think he'd be sentenced mid range on it and end up actually serving something like 3-4 years.

If he gets 3-4 years then bye bye Minneapolis.

 

[RikidyBones]

Based on that definition of manslaughter, I don't see how Chauvin avoids that one. It seems like the most likely outcome. It will be seen as "too lenient" by BLM and the professional protestor types. It'll be the summer of "mostly peaceful" protests all over again.

The argument to leave doubt is the crowds danger argument being an immense distraction and concern. I'm sure @lawgator1 will agree, this isn't an open shut case at all. Alot of intricacies.

LG, with the training manual showing a guy knee to neck and several trainers saying it's not accepted, is that potentially perjury? Does anyone know if the manual was used in cross examination and what the answers were? I haven't found anything on it

 

[Tastylicks]

Medical expert today testified that Floyd's leg showed he had a seizure as a result of lack of oxygen from the restraint.

He also said what the officer did would've killed any otherwise healthy individual and that he estimates Floyd was dead while the officer still had his knee on him for over 2 & a half minutes

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

If he gets 3-4 years then bye bye Minneapolis.

Nah. The protests will be mostly peaceful

 

[Vol8188]

Medical expert today testified that Floyd's leg showed he had a seizure as a result of lack of oxygen from the restraint.

He also said what the officer did would've killed any otherwise healthy individual and that he estimates Floyd was dead while the officer still had his knee on him for over 2 & a half minutes

Do you know what else causes a lack of oxygen? Opiate overdose.

 

[Tastylicks]

Do you know what else causes a lack of oxygen? Opiate overdose.

Well the pulmonary expert with 20+ years in the medical field sees it differently than you. What are your credentials so I can compare to his?

 

[Vol8188]

Well the pulmonary expert with 20+ years in the medical field sees it differently than you. What are your credentials so I can compare to his?

Does he see it differently? Let’s wait for cross examination to answer that. This is no different than what the ER doctor said yesterday. Then on cross he admitted, “yes, hypoxia can be caused by opiate overdose”.

And no you don’t need 20 years as a medical doctor to know that opiates cause respiratory failure which results in hypoxia

 

[Tastylicks]

Does he see it differently? Let’s wait for cross examination to answer that. This is no different than what the ER doctor said yesterday. Then on cross he admitted, “yes, hypoxia can be caused by opiate overdose”.

And no you don’t need 20 years as a medical doctor to know that opiates cause respiratory failure which results in hypoxia

the cross examination is over. Look it up if you want. Yes, he sees it differently than you. And since you didn't answer, I'll say he must be more qualified than you as well

 

[Vol8188]

the cross examination is over. Look it up if you want. Yes, he sees it differently than you. And since you didn't answer, I'll say he must be more qualified than you as well

It’s impossible to see that different. Opiate overdose causes hypoxia. It’s not debatable. But I’ll happily look up the testimony. Can you provide the name of the witness?

 

[Tastylicks]

It’s impossible to see that different. Opiate overdose causes hypoxia. It’s not debatable. But I’ll happily look up the testimony. Can you provide the name of the witness?

It is possible to see it differently than you because overdose is not the only cause of hypoxia. Like maybe someone's knee. Duh dude

The witness is named Martin J. Tobin, MD.