Derek Chauvin trial

Check out the original release from the Minneapolis Police Department (below).

Thank God for those bystanders and their video. Without it, I believe Chauvin would've gotten away with murder. The Floyd family's request for investigation would've hit a brick wall without the outcry from the video, especially during Covid. Chauvin would probably still be busting heads today

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Opinions aren't really right or wrong. They exist in the absence of proof . . . which is what makes them opinions instead of facts. There are definitely stupid opinions, but they're still not definitively wrong . . . yet.

And sometimes opinions exist in spite of, and fly in the face of, proof or facts. Or both.

Heady times we live in, no?
 
You didn't follow the trial or review the evidence. The intent element is related to the assault (felony), not the killing. This is where the defense failed in winning the jury instruction argument and failed in presenting almost no case about assault intent. The assault intent was glossed over in the jury instructions allowing far wider latitude than what's written in Minnesota law. Chauvin is a POS cop and guilty but every criminal will cry assault when restrained and this woke jury just gave them a free ticket to $$$ settlements. I hope the murder convictions are overturned.
Pretty sure assault is a general intent crime in Minnesota.

State v. Fleck, 810 NW 2d 303 - Minn: Supreme Court 2012 - Google Scholar

“The forbidden conduct is a physical act, which results in bodily harm upon another. Although the definition of assault-harm requires the State to prove that the defendant intended to do the physical act, nothing in the definition requires proof that the defendant meant to violate the law or cause a particular result.”

State v. Dorn, 875 NW 2d 357 - Minn: Court of Appeals 2016 - Google Scholar

“The state charged appellant Alie Christine Dorn with first-degree assault, in violation of Minn.Stat. § 609.221, subd. 1 (2012), after Dorn pushed another person, causing him to fall backwards into a bonfire... At about 1:30 a.m., the complainant was standing with his back to a bonfire. One of his friends drew his attention to Dorn, who was standing nearby, and asked if he thought she looked like a drug dealer. Attempting to joke, he replied to his friend that, yes, she looked like a drug dealer. Dorn, who appeared intoxicated, overheard him, said, "What?," and then pushed him with two hands. He lost his balance, and she pushed him again with two hands, causing him to land on the embers of the fire, where he remained for several seconds before a witness pulled him out. He sustained third-degree burns, which required skin grafting surgery on his arm and hand.”

She goes on to argue that she didn’t mean for him to fall in the fire. The court says it doesn’t matter because pushing him was intentional.

“To support a conviction of assault-harm, Minnesota law does not require proof that the appellant intended to inflict bodily harm. The evidence is sufficient to sustain Dorn's conviction of first-degree assault because some degree of physical force was intentionally used against another and was a substantial cause of great bodily harm.”

Here, the assault is the act of kneeling on Floyd’s neck after it became unreasonable to do so. So, are you saying the jury should have found that kneeling on Floyd’s neck for 9.5 minutes while people were telling him that he was dying was an accident?*

Also, jury verdicts don’t have that sort of precedent value and officers will still have qualified immunity, for now.

*- whether a general intent crime can/should be able to sustain a felony murder conviction is probably a legitimate question of law, but as it’s written right now, that seems to be the way it works.
 
Yeah, sure, and if the government that draws its legitimacy from the consent of the governed happens to trample the civil rights of a few communities to the point that they speak up about it, then the government should just cut off services to those communities. ****ing brilliant.

Who's stopping them from setting up their own police force? It would be their option to cut off services anyway. Also, we fully disagree that communities are having their civil rights trampled. That is so overly dramatic and flat out incorrect. How do you want them to be policed? Please, give me your brilliant suggestion on how to police a community that doesn't want you there, with extremely high crime rates, and credos that go against helping solve any type of wrong doing. You see the "**** the National Guard" chants going on yesterday? Those people don't want any type of policing or help. I say let them experience what that is like.
 
I don’t have the experience or expertise needed to second guess what’s necessary for an effective prosecution under the laws of some other state. It would be pointless to go around making up the laws to suit my feelings about what they should be, and it would be arrogant to assume that I know them better than the career prosecutor who just won this case.

As for the weight of the other evidence, it clearly didn’t convince everyone (see: this thread).
That’s not what I asked you. I asked you to take your lawyer off. You are comparing you as a lawyer to the prosecuter and judgement calls on the case. I asked you to forget that for a moment and speak as your human self.
Was it, in light of all the other testimony, necessary to have a 9 year old child testify?
It is never pointless to be proven human.
 
Pretty sure assault is a general intent crime in Minnesota.

State v. Fleck, 810 NW 2d 303 - Minn: Supreme Court 2012 - Google Scholar

“The forbidden conduct is a physical act, which results in bodily harm upon another. Although the definition of assault-harm requires the State to prove that the defendant intended to do the physical act, nothing in the definition requires proof that the defendant meant to violate the law or cause a particular result.”

State v. Dorn, 875 NW 2d 357 - Minn: Court of Appeals 2016 - Google Scholar

“The state charged appellant Alie Christine Dorn with first-degree assault, in violation of Minn.Stat. § 609.221, subd. 1 (2012), after Dorn pushed another person, causing him to fall backwards into a bonfire... At about 1:30 a.m., the complainant was standing with his back to a bonfire. One of his friends drew his attention to Dorn, who was standing nearby, and asked if he thought she looked like a drug dealer. Attempting to joke, he replied to his friend that, yes, she looked like a drug dealer. Dorn, who appeared intoxicated, overheard him, said, "What?," and then pushed him with two hands. He lost his balance, and she pushed him again with two hands, causing him to land on the embers of the fire, where he remained for several seconds before a witness pulled him out. He sustained third-degree burns, which required skin grafting surgery on his arm and hand.”

She goes on to argue that she didn’t mean for him to fall in the fire. The court says it doesn’t matter because pushing him was intentional.

“To support a conviction of assault-harm, Minnesota law does not require proof that the appellant intended to inflict bodily harm. The evidence is sufficient to sustain Dorn's conviction of first-degree assault because some degree of physical force was intentionally used against another and was a substantial cause of great bodily harm.”

Here, the assault is the act of kneeling on Floyd’s neck after it became unreasonable to do so. So, are you saying the jury should have found that kneeling on Floyd’s neck for 9.5 minutes while people were telling him that he was dying was an accident?*

Also, jury verdicts don’t have that sort of precedent value and officers will still have qualified immunity, for now.

*- whether a general intent crime can/should be able to sustain a felony murder conviction is probably a legitimate question of law, but as it’s written right now, that seems to be the way it works.

When put in context of Chauvins duty and his stature I don't believe it was an accident nor done on purpose. Chauvin likely believed it was an extension of his duty and I don't believe the state proved he intended to assault Floyd. He was subduing a very large man who was resisting and under the influence.

Chauvin weighs 145lbs. He had to think he needed to apply maximum force to keep Floyd restrained. I don't believe he sat there in full view while being recorded and intentionally assaulted Floyd. How reasonable it is to the viewer vs how reasonable it is to a Chauvin is subjective and the defense missed an opportunity to bring up Chauvins stature. They should have been hammering home how much bigger Floyd was in comparison or how much force is necessary for a 145lb guy to restrain him. I even did an experiment at home and tossed my 135lb son off my head like a rag doll and I'm only 6' 175. I even had my wife and daughter join in and could still move enough to breath but not escape.

The jury instructions barely mentioned the assault intent while its prominent in the written Minnesota law. I was surprised such little of the actual law wording was referenced in the jury instruction. Chauvin was reckless, careless, unsympathetic and didn't properly asses the situation after a Floyd was subdued but I never believed he intended to assault or intentionally hurt Floyd.
 
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Who's stopping them from setting up their own police force? It would be their option to cut off services anyway. Also, we fully disagree that communities are having their civil rights trampled. That is so overly dramatic and flat out incorrect. How do you want them to be policed? Please, give me your brilliant suggestion on how to police a community that doesn't want you there, with extremely high crime rates, and credos that go against helping solve any type of wrong doing. You see the "**** the National Guard" chants going on yesterday? Those people don't want any type of policing or help. I say let them experience what that is like.
It’s not dramatic or wrong, gtfoh. I’ve see it with my own eyes. Drawing guns on people for running a stop sign, threatening to “put a cap in their ass” for being bewildered at having a gun shoved in their face, yanking them around. Pulling over cars full of teenagers over and lying about the reason. Harassing people who are just walking around in their community, not accepting when they exercise their right to just walk away, assaulting them, and then making up reasonable suspicion. If you think any of that doesn’t happen, you live in some really wonderful alternate reality, are woefully uninformed, or are full of ****.

And I already told you: this idea that “they don’t want us here” is flat out wrong. People in poor communities call the police more often than in wealthy communities and for the same reasons. If they got the same service, they’d raise their kids to have the same views of law enforcement.

What they don’t want is police pulling them over for looking a certain way (seen that too), beating the **** out of them for not immediately understanding why a cop was screaming at them over an expired tag (seen it).

In communities where police don’t act like an occupying military force, they earn people’s respect. I’ve been driving around with an expired tag for six months. It’s not the first time. Last time, I actually got pulled over after nearly a year. Got a polite and professional warning and had a laugh over the fact that I’m an attorney who tells people not to drive with expired tags if they don’t want their car searched. Dude didn’t pull a gun, didn’t make up a reason to search the car, didn’t order me out of the car just get a different look, didn’t check for warrants, none of that. I didn’t mind, and wouldn’t have cared if he had written me a ticket. Partly because I knew if I just got the tag renewed before going to court I’d be treated fairly. I wasn’t the least but put off by him doing his job, I got my tag renewed, and had another laugh the next time I grilled him in court and he jokingly threatened to go check my tags.

After 4 decades of treating poor people like they’re subhuman, less deserving, and ought to bow and scrape for the real humans who deign to come to their communities to try to clean up their messes, it’s no wonder they don’t respect police or the system in general.
 
It’s not dramatic or wrong, gtfoh. I’ve see it with my own eyes. Drawing guns on people for running a stop sign, threatening to “put a cap in their ass” for being bewildered at having a gun shoved in their face, yanking them around. Pulling over cars full of teenagers over and lying about the reason. Harassing people who are just walking around in their community, not accepting when they exercise their right to just walk away, assaulting them, and then making up reasonable suspicion. If you think any of that doesn’t happen, you live in some really wonderful alternate reality, are woefully uninformed, or are full of ****.

And I already told you: this idea that “they don’t want us here” is flat out wrong. People in poor communities call the police more often than in wealthy communities and for the same reasons. If they got the same service, they’d raise their kids to have the same views of law enforcement.

What they don’t want is police pulling them over for looking a certain way (seen that too), beating the **** out of them for not immediately understanding why a cop was screaming at them over an expired tag (seen it).

In communities where police don’t act like an occupying military force, they earn people’s respect. I’ve been driving around with an expired tag for six months. It’s not the first time. Last time, I actually got pulled over after nearly a year. Got a polite and professional warning and had a laugh over the fact that I’m an attorney who tells people not to drive with expired tags if they don’t want their car searched. Dude didn’t pull a gun, didn’t make up a reason to search the car, didn’t order me out of the car just get a different look, didn’t check for warrants, none of that. I didn’t mind, and wouldn’t have cared if he had written me a ticket. Partly because I knew if I just got the tag renewed before going to court I’d be treated fairly. I wasn’t the least but put off by him doing his job, I got my tag renewed, and had another laugh the next time I grilled him in court and he jokingly threatened to go check my tags.

After 4 decades of treating poor people like they’re subhuman, less deserving, and ought to bow and scrape for the real humans who deign to come to their communities to try to clean up their messes, it’s no wonder they don’t respect police or the system in general.

The avatar makes total sense now. Also my anecdotal evidence of actually being a cop and your anecdotal evidence of watching people immediately get the **** beat out of them are vastly differing. There's no common ground here at all. Have a nice day.
 
The avatar makes total sense now. Also my anecdotal evidence of actually being a cop and your anecdotal evidence of watching people immediately get the **** beat out of them are vastly differing. There's no common ground here at all. Have a nice day.

The guy who otherizes poor communities because they object when cops otherize them is a cop. Shocking.
 
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It’s not dramatic or wrong, gtfoh. I’ve see it with my own eyes. Drawing guns on people for running a stop sign, threatening to “put a cap in their ass” for being bewildered at having a gun shoved in their face, yanking them around. Pulling over cars full of teenagers over and lying about the reason. Harassing people who are just walking around in their community, not accepting when they exercise their right to just walk away, assaulting them, and then making up reasonable suspicion. If you think any of that doesn’t happen, you live in some really wonderful alternate reality, are woefully uninformed, or are full of ****.

And I already told you: this idea that “they don’t want us here” is flat out wrong. People in poor communities call the police more often than in wealthy communities and for the same reasons. If they got the same service, they’d raise their kids to have the same views of law enforcement.

What they don’t want is police pulling them over for looking a certain way (seen that too), beating the **** out of them for not immediately understanding why a cop was screaming at them over an expired tag (seen it).

In communities where police don’t act like an occupying military force, they earn people’s respect. I’ve been driving around with an expired tag for six months. It’s not the first time. Last time, I actually got pulled over after nearly a year. Got a polite and professional warning and had a laugh over the fact that I’m an attorney who tells people not to drive with expired tags if they don’t want their car searched. Dude didn’t pull a gun, didn’t make up a reason to search the car, didn’t order me out of the car just get a different look, didn’t check for warrants, none of that. I didn’t mind, and wouldn’t have cared if he had written me a ticket. Partly because I knew if I just got the tag renewed before going to court I’d be treated fairly. I wasn’t the least but put off by him doing his job, I got my tag renewed, and had another laugh the next time I grilled him in court and he jokingly threatened to go check my tags.

After 4 decades of treating poor people like they’re subhuman, less deserving, and ought to bow and scrape for the real humans who deign to come to their communities to try to clean up their messes, it’s no wonder they don’t respect police or the system in general.

I agree with some things... like the fact they will pull over truck load of teens , and make up a reason. Happened to me,(he said he thought my windows were too dark) .

Basically they can say basically anything like , he touched the lane marker, wasn't maintaining a constant speed etc..

They have to justify thier time, they can't just show up and work all day without getting a call or have no tickets or warnings wrote. Higher ups will question wth you been doing all day... This should be stopped, leads to unnecessary risks.

Doesn't matter your race, just less cops in better neighborhoods because they don't need as many.. but you can bet your bottom dollar, they giving those people tickets too!

The reason they may act differently towards suburbs vs inner city is they aint getting calls like shots fired, someone murdered , drive by shootings in the suburbs... They don't have to be on edge as much. Any normal person would be more on guard , and no nonsense in a high crime area..

Just my thoughts
 
The guy who otherizes poor communities because they object when cops otherize them is a cop. Shocking.

I revise my statement. I’ll take the high road. I didn’t otherize anyone. I said they can privatize police and cater it to their needs or get rid of them if they want (which I’ve heard plenty of chants that clearly state that). Don’t put your projections on me.
 
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Privatize the police forces. Do like some rural fire departments do, offer subscription services.

A guy I read on another forum made a good point. I think the better approach is to change the way we fund police departments. Fund the police based on budget appropriations, rather than through fines and civil forfeitures. The current system we have incentives police to have as much interaction with people as possible, because that's largely how the departments are able to be profitable. It seems to me like cops spending less time time writing tickets for minor traffic offenses like illegal window tinting, noise ordinances, expired tags, etc, would result in less opportunities for a cop to be put in a situation where a tragedy occurs. And it would allow officers the ability to put their efforts towards crimes that actually matter (like violent crimes).

Along with this, I'd like to see requirements for being a cop be higher. In far too many places, the requirement for being a cop is simply a HS diploma/GED, a clean record, and the ability to pass a written and PT test. In many other cities, all it takes is the aforementioned requirements and a 12 week certification course. Why are we giving people barely qualified to work at Lowes a shield and a gun? As with any business, if you have higher quality applicants, you will have higher quality employees. Obviously, you'll need to pay these people better, which is where proper funding comes into play.
 
The Media really wanted to Out the anonymous Chauvin jurors

It is bewildering, then, that certain newsrooms spent a significant amount of energy trying to reveal the identities of the jurors. It threatened not only the process of a free and fair trial, but it also put the jurors in potential danger.

The Minnesota-based Star Tribune, for example, published an article on Monday titled “Who are the jurors in the Derek Chauvin trial?” Its subhead reads, “Though the jurors will remain anonymous, here's what we know about the jury seated for Derek Chauvin's trial in the killing of George Floyd.”

The article itself ticks through the list of jurors, “juror 2,” “juror 9,” juror 19,” etc., revealing their respective races and occupations. Though the descriptions are bland enough as to allow the Star Tribune to claim it didn’t divulge explicitly identifying information, anyone who knows the jurors in real life, and knows they took off work to serve on jury duty, can easily match their identities to the descriptions provided in the news article.

CBS News, meanwhile, did an entire newscast revealing details of the anonymous jurors, including that one of them lives near where another unarmed black man, Daunte Wright, was killed last week.

Then, there’s the New York Times, which promoted a story this month on social media under the banner, “The 12 jury members and two alternates in the Derek Chauvin trial remain anonymous, and their faces can't be shown on camera. Here's what we do know about them.”

The media really wanted to out the anonymous Chauvin jurors
 
That’s not what I asked you. I asked you to take your lawyer off. You are comparing you as a lawyer to the prosecuter and judgement calls on the case. I asked you to forget that for a moment and speak as your human self.
Was it, in light of all the other testimony, necessary to have a 9 year old child testify?
It is never pointless to be proven human.

A zebra can't change it's stripes.
 
I agree with some things... like the fact they will pull over truck load of teens , and make up a reason. Happened to me,(he said he thought my windows were too dark) .

Basically they can say basically anything like , he touched the lane marker, wasn't maintaining a constant speed etc..

They have to justify thier time, they can't just show up and work all day without getting a call or have no tickets or warnings wrote. Higher ups will question wth you been doing all day... This should be stopped, leads to unnecessary risks.

Doesn't matter your race, just less cops in better neighborhoods because they don't need as many.. but you can bet your bottom dollar, they giving those people tickets too!

The reason they may act differently towards suburbs vs inner city is they aint getting calls like shots fired, someone murdered , drive by shootings in the suburbs... They don't have to be on edge as much. Any normal person would be more on guard , and no nonsense in a high crime area..

Just my thoughts
I agree with most of this, including that it’s not about race. I say appearance (of which race is a factor), but if the differences justify the disparity, then end police practices that put police in dangerous, nonexigent situations.

If a traffic stop for a broken taillight is legitimately so dangerous that a police officer’s innate fear might cause them to panic and mistakenly shoot someone, then quit primarily relying on pretextual traffic stops for drug interdiction. Just keep police out of that dangerous situation. Particularly if the community that you’re “protecting” from a zip of weed doesn’t want to be protected that way.
 
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I agree with most of this, including that it’s not about race. I say appearance (of which race is a factor), but if the differences justify the disparity, then end police practices that put police in dangerous, nonexigent situations.

If a traffic stop for a broken taillight is legitimately so dangerous that a police officer’s innate fear might cause them to panic and mistakenly shoot someone, then quit primarily relying on pretextual traffic stops for drug interdiction. Just keep police out of that dangerous situation. Particularly if the community that you’re “protecting” from a zip of weed doesn’t want to be protected that way.
Timathy mcveigh would agree.
 

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