Electric Vehicles

[LouderVol]

When you say "fake green market"... wtf are you talking about? Are you suggesting that electric cars are "bad"... not more "green" than normal combustion-engine cars? If not, lemme know what you mean.

I was talking about the market itself, people buying them, the number on the road. the government subsidies on pricing to drive false demand. the government made EVs more accessible than they would otherwise be. the government is also requiring a certain amount of production for them, which further adjusts prices down.

but yes, none of them are as good for the environment as they make them out to be. they just have the government behind them pushing a false narrative about EVs being the thing that is going to save our planet.

personally I am all for EVs, if you want to buy one, do it. I just don't think the government should be involved at all, which I think is part of what is driving Musk here.

 

[RavinDave]

Definitely paying him too much.

With his Computer Science degree he could have got bigger bucks from Microsoft or Amazon but he wanted to join the family firm.

 

[hog88]

With his Computer Science degree he could have got bigger bucks from Microsoft or Amazon but he wanted to join the family firm.

There's a lot to be said for keeping the business in the family.

 

[RavinDave]

There's a lot to be said for keeping the business in the family.

He will be running the company in a few years.

 

[hog88]

He will be running the company in a few years.

Congrats.

 

[LouderVol]

obviously not related to the thread, and not happening in the US, but not worth its own thread. but its another example of the government pushing an overtly "green" thing into a market, without understanding the implications.

people in the UK not able to sell their homes because they added insulation per the governments instructions, to make their houses more efficient.

‘They encouraged us to insulate our home. Now it’s unmortgageable’

UK householders are angered by the discovery they cannot remortgage or sell their homes after installing spray-foam insulation to cut energy use

www.theguardian.com

Government pushed people to insulate. foam insulation is the easiest way to insulate already built roofs with no attic space, government offered grants to use it, local jurisdictions approved it. now lenders won't offer mortgages for homes with foam insulation, so people are unable to sell. the foam insulation traps water, causing condensation, which causes rot of the roof rafters. so the people's only choice is to pay to have it removed, and probably add something else back, so they can sell.

 

[hog88]

obviously not related to the thread, and not happening in the US, but not worth its own thread. but its another example of the government pushing an overtly "green" thing into a market, without understanding the implications.

people in the UK not able to sell their homes because they added insulation per the governments instructions, to make their houses more efficient.

‘They encouraged us to insulate our home. Now it’s unmortgageable’

UK householders are angered by the discovery they cannot remortgage or sell their homes after installing spray-foam insulation to cut energy use

www.theguardian.com

Government pushed people to insulate. foam insulation is the easiest way to insulate already built roofs with no attic space, government offered grants to use it, local jurisdictions approved it. now lenders won't offer mortgages for homes with foam insulation, so people are unable to sell. the foam insulation traps water, causing condensation, which causes rot of the roof rafters. so the people's only choice is to pay to have it removed, and probably add something else back, so they can sell.

What do you know about spray foam insulation? Considering it for the walls when we build.

 

[LouderVol]

What do you know about spray foam insulation? Considering it for the walls when we build.

if you are putting it in enclosed spaces go with open cell spray foam.

IMO its best reserved for areas where you can't get other insulation in. Good around pipes in the exterior wall.

Typically though we only do batt insulation for walls. it just works. if you want more/better insulation it may be worth going to a thicker wall 2x6 exterior studs, and adding more batt insulation. lets you get around pipes easier.

lots of other things you can do with framing that framers don't want to do, or are expensive. and I don't really blame them, they are typically pretty tedious.

 

[hog88]

if you are putting it in enclosed spaces go with open cell spray foam.

IMO its best reserved for areas where you can't get other insulation in. Good around pipes in the exterior wall.

Typically though we only do batt insulation for walls. it just works. if you want more/better insulation it may be worth going to a thicker wall 2x6 exterior studs, and adding more batt insulation. lets you get around pipes easier.

lots of other things you can do with framing that framers don't want to do, or are expensive. and I don't really blame them, they are typically pretty tedious.

We started our plan with 2x6 studs (and still may go that way) but the cost just doesn't seem worth it. I'm leaning towards doing the walls with a skim coat of spray insulation and using bat over that.

 

[NorthDallas40]

We started our plan with 2x6 studs (and still may go that way) but the cost just doesn't seem worth it. I'm leaning towards doing the walls with a skim coat of spray insulation and using bat over that.

Like louder said just go with open cell as it won’t trap moisture and I’d guess you’re fine. On new builds I’d guess it doesn’t matter since you control all the vapor barriers. I’m really scratching my head on that UK article it just sounds like the construction industry completely dropped the ball on not telling the government to not recommend moronic remodel processes.

We considered foam when we built our current house. I decided against it and just added more blown in the attic after move in and sealed up all the can lights and attic access inside of the AC space. Our house is pretty tight now.

 

[LouderVol]

We started our plan with 2x6 studs (and still may go that way) but the cost just doesn't seem worth it. I'm leaning towards doing the walls with a skim coat of spray insulation and using bat over that.

its typically best to not mix and match foam insulation in a "slice" of space if you can avoid it, you are just creating another spot for condensation to form because of the foam layer. also its probably two different crews doing the foam vs the batt, so you are going to pay a premium on that.

I would bet its more expensive but another option is to add a layer of "outsulation". local crews may not be familiar with it, but rigid insulation on the outside of sheathing.

9 fingers has a point about the vapor barriers. controlling air flow will be almost as important as extra insulation.

 

[NorthDallas40]

9 fingers has a point …

Bastage!

 

[hog88]

its typically best to not mix and match foam insulation in a "slice" of space if you can avoid it, you are just creating another spot for condensation to form because of the foam layer. also its probably two different crews doing the foam vs the batt, so you are going to pay a premium on that.

I would bet its more expensive but another option is to add a layer of "outsulation". local crews may not be familiar with it, but rigid insulation on the outside of sheathing.

9 fingers has a point about the vapor barriers. controlling air flow will be almost as important as extra insulation.

Right now we (me and wife) are in the negotiation stage. We agreed to a budget, now it's agreeing to every damn thing else while staying under budget. If it were up to me alone I'd do a 1 bedroom 1 bath ICF house and big pole barn.

 

[LouderVol]

Like louder said just go with open cell as it won’t trap moisture and I’d guess you’re fine. On new builds I’d guess it doesn’t matter since you control all the vapor barriers. I’m really scratching my head on that UK article it just sounds like the construction industry completely dropped the ball on not telling the government to not recommend moronic remodel processes.

We considered foam when we built our current house. I decided against it and just added more blown in the attic after move in and sealed up all the can lights and attic access inside of the AC space. Our house is pretty tight now.

if their government is anything like ours their EPA is a different group than handles the construction side. and there is likely no great mechanism to have those experts talk to an agency they don't normally work with. see my comments about the new A2L refrigerants the EPA required.

secondly the construction industry may legit have not known. foam insulation as the primary is very new, at least here in the states, like in my career new. and I am pretty young still.

it can work as roof insulation, but the installer has to do a lot of work they won't ever do. basically they would have needed to install baffles below the roof deck and foamed the bottom of those baffles. the baffles would also require air flow from bottom to top, if no ridge or soffit vents existed they would also have to add that, and insulation guys aren't going to do that. they will typically just foam it, and say "trust us, there is a baffle there".

and with most of the green push from the government, because the government doesn't know what its actually doing, there are plenty of vultures that are going to take advantage instead of engaging the construction professionals first. Its seen as an unnecessary cost, and building codes are notoriously reactionary. even in Europe. A couple years ago there was fire in a tower retirement home that killed a bunch of people in the UK. it was a known issue, the architect had filed a notice with the client, but the client rejected it because it wasn't required and it cost more money. now the argument is that the architect should have refused to sign off on anything even with the client's rejection, but it just doesn't happen. its a career killer to do the right thing some times.

 

[LouderVol]

Right now we (me and wife) are in the negotiation stage. We agreed to a budget, now it's agreeing to every damn thing else while staying under budget. If it were up to me alone I'd do a 1 bedroom 1 bath ICF house and big pole barn.

got a price per square foot you are willing to share?

Betting if its Ms. Piggy in control you are probably looking at 225, 250 a sqft. probably shouldn't expect anything less than 200 if you are staying any where near Nashville.

my parents are getting ready to build in NW Alabama and I advised them to expect 175 a squarefoot.

 

[hog88]

got a price per square foot you are willing to share?

Betting if its Ms. Piggy in control you are probably looking at 225, 250 a sqft. probably shouldn't expect anything less than 200 if you are staying any where near Nashville.

my parents are getting ready to build in NW Alabama and I advised them to expect 175 a squarefoot.

I (we) have a top end number and whatever she can get for that works for me as long as I get my covered porch and barn. AND low maintenance. But right now I'm right at $230 sq ft unless she insists on 12' ceilings then cuts will have to made elsewhere. As I said we're still negotiating, she adds I subtract.

 

[NorthDallas40]

if their government is anything like ours their EPA is a different group than handles the construction side. and there is likely no great mechanism to have those experts talk to an agency they don't normally work with. see my comments about the new A2L refrigerants the EPA required.

secondly the construction industry may legit have not known. foam insulation as the primary is very new, at least here in the states, like in my career new. and I am pretty young still.

it can work as roof insulation, but the installer has to do a lot of work they won't ever do. basically they would have needed to install baffles below the roof deck and foamed the bottom of those baffles. the baffles would also require air flow from bottom to top, if no ridge or soffit vents existed they would also have to add that, and insulation guys aren't going to do that. they will typically just foam it, and say "trust us, there is a baffle there".

and with most of the green push from the government, because the government doesn't know what its actually doing, there are plenty of vultures that are going to take advantage instead of engaging the construction professionals first. Its seen as an unnecessary cost, and building codes are notoriously reactionary. even in Europe. A couple years ago there was fire in a tower retirement home that killed a bunch of people in the UK. it was a known issue, the architect had filed a notice with the client, but the client rejected it because it wasn't required and it cost more money. now the argument is that the architect should have refused to sign off on anything even with the client's rejection, but it just doesn't happen. its a career killer to do the right thing some times.

I just don’t understand how to consider going with spray in foam on a remodel with an attic design likely counting on circulation and ventilation to control moisture. It sounds like a really bad idea. However it’s my understanding vertical walls have largely been considered as closed spaces for a very long time.

When we built I considered open cell foam walls and blown/batten ceiling. Wound up just going old school batten walls and blown/batten ceiling. A big deal on this build was properly sealing all the plate lines, Sheetrock penetration points, and attic leak points. They did an energy star cert on our build and it passed some level of certification as we have the sticker on the load center door in the garage. No idea if that’s note worthy or not but the town required energy star cert/testing of some level

 

[volfanhill]

My son rented a Tesla in VA while visiting his gf recently. Said his “next car” was going to be a Porsche Taycan. I said “you mean your first car”. He drives my wife’s Macan. I must be paying him too much.

Can I call you papa?

 

[Smokey X]

obviously not related to the thread, and not happening in the US, but not worth its own thread. but its another example of the government pushing an overtly "green" thing into a market, without understanding the implications.

people in the UK not able to sell their homes because they added insulation per the governments instructions, to make their houses more efficient.

‘They encouraged us to insulate our home. Now it’s unmortgageable’

UK householders are angered by the discovery they cannot remortgage or sell their homes after installing spray-foam insulation to cut energy use

www.theguardian.com

Government pushed people to insulate. foam insulation is the easiest way to insulate already built roofs with no attic space, government offered grants to use it, local jurisdictions approved it. now lenders won't offer mortgages for homes with foam insulation, so people are unable to sell. the foam insulation traps water, causing condensation, which causes rot of the roof rafters. so the people's only choice is to pay to have it removed, and probably add something else back, so they can sell.

similar to this discussion.....this past February we had all of the floor insulation removed from the crawl space of our home. Turns out that having the crawl space vented to the outdoors (and its corresponding high humidity levels) in conjunction with AC ductwork and air handling unit operating (with less than ideal insulation) was causing condensation and the insulation to hold moisture in the floor joist cavities leading to fungus and mildew buildup considerably. The ground vapor barrier was also deteriorated enough to contribute to the problem. It required a substantial cleaning with hydrogen peroxide to remove the fungus and mildew. Hopefully we got it before any damage to the flooring.

New vapor barrier, sealed vents and crawl space walls and dehumidifier added.

It doesn't really seem that the insulation removal has impacted the electric cooling bill at all.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Lots of older houses ruined by spray foam. It has its uses but in pre-existing there is a good chance you're going to F up the house. We have a pre-1800s house, we did end up using foam in a open crawl space where batts weren't doing its job, I would not consider it wise to use in the walls or ceiling. Any kind of historic home especially ones in Europe, good luck especially if they pump it in wall cavities.

 

[StarRaider]

Can I call you papa?

hey i am a low maintenance orphan up for adoption too if it gets me a 911.

 

[SlipKidVol]

obviously not related to the thread, and not happening in the US, but not worth its own thread. but its another example of the government pushing an overtly "green" thing into a market, without understanding the implications.

people in the UK not able to sell their homes because they added insulation per the governments instructions, to make their houses more efficient.

‘They encouraged us to insulate our home. Now it’s unmortgageable’

UK householders are angered by the discovery they cannot remortgage or sell their homes after installing spray-foam insulation to cut energy use

www.theguardian.com

Government pushed people to insulate. foam insulation is the easiest way to insulate already built roofs with no attic space, government offered grants to use it, local jurisdictions approved it. now lenders won't offer mortgages for homes with foam insulation, so people are unable to sell. the foam insulation traps water, causing condensation, which causes rot of the roof rafters. so the people's only choice is to pay to have it removed, and probably add something else back, so they can sell.

Someone needs to read this

but not worth its own thread.

 

[RavinDave]

Can I call you papa?

Can you sell catalyst?

 

[LouderVol]

similar to this discussion.....this past February we had all of the floor insulation removed from the crawl space of our home. Turns out that having the crawl space vented to the outdoors (and its corresponding high humidity levels) in conjunction with AC ductwork and air handling unit operating (with less than ideal insulation) was causing condensation and the insulation to hold moisture in the floor joist cavities leading to fungus and mildew buildup considerably. The ground vapor barrier was also deteriorated enough to contribute to the problem. It required a substantial cleaning with hydrogen peroxide to remove the fungus and mildew. Hopefully we got it before any damage to the flooring.

New vapor barrier, sealed vents and crawl space walls and dehumidifier added.

It doesn't really seem that the insulation removal has impacted the electric cooling bill at all.

I would say typically you either want to vent it, or insulate it. typically not both unless you are going to seal the floor beams and insulation. and when you vent crawl spaces it needs to be vented on opposite sides, typically on the long sides of the house. if the air can't flow across the whole space, it won't work.

as LSU said, a lot of older homes don't want to be buttoned up. they have lasted this long breathing, and without insulation. changing that just invites problems.

 

[LouderVol]

I just don’t understand how to consider going with spray in foam on a remodel with an attic design likely counting on circulation and ventilation to control moisture. It sounds like a really bad idea. However it’s my understanding vertical walls have largely been considered as closed spaces for a very long time.

When we built I considered open cell foam walls and blown/batten ceiling. Wound up just going old school batten walls and blown/batten ceiling. A big deal on this build was properly sealing all the plate lines, Sheetrock penetration points, and attic leak points. They did an energy star cert on our build and it passed some level of certification as we have the sticker on the load center door in the garage. No idea if that’s note worthy or not but the town required energy star cert/testing of some level

With the government/green side of it they only think about one thing. energy savings. and in reality they just look at the number and assume more green equals more better. they literally don't have the understanding of how a building works to know if more green actually means more better. or what the implications of the more green is.

they aren't going to realize that a remodel is completely different than building new. they aren't going to know about the building needing to breathe. if they did they would probably try to stop it breathing too. because that is loss of heat, but most old buildings need to breath.

they are typically very myopic in their world view, and think that making a change comes with no consequences, and will always be an improvement rather than just a change. its not their job to think about the fate of the house or the people living there and their lives. and usually they just flat out don't care about the individuals. they are lost in the greater good bs, ignoring the realities of their greater good are not so greater or so good. at least not how they thought they would.

circling back to the thread topic, EVs are a great example of it. yay we aren't burning gas to run our cars. no I don't care that we are pulling more energy from an over taxed electrical grid. no I don't care that most of that electricity is generated from a worse source than the gas that fueled my car. no I don't care that my EV is 4 wheeled ecological nightmare waiting to happen. I am saving the world.