Electric Vehicles

[hog88]

I dont think anyone, other than those making this a political thing... really buying into the power grid narrative.

Much like the 'no one wants to work,' 'Mexicans are taking our jobs', and 'rampant election fraud.' Human nature is to protect what we have, what is comfortable to us. Therefore we believe a narrative to support our cause. Truth is, Ive yet to see one single shred of data to support FOX News' predation and fear mongering. Just like every law suit has been laughed out of court by an overtaxed Judiciary.

No one wants to credit Biden with saying he was going to fix the infrastructure issues. Its a massive undertaking and the will take getting, well, 1950's minded States like this one - to see the forest for the trees.

Fortunately Tennessee is a whore for quick bucks and to laud job gains. Car manufacturers see a need; and are bringing jobs here.

Weve looked at Hydrogen and it didnt take.

If you're that concerned about the infrastructure and about the environment...create or com up with an alternative method. Or, put down the keys to the 1500 and bike to work.

Have you ever looked into how the batteries and their raw materials for EVs are produced? My post had nothing to do with the power grid.

In any case natural gas would be the cleanest, most reliable energy source for vehicles and we have gobs of it right her in the US.

 

[Jackcrevol]

Have you ever looked into how the batteries and their raw materials for EVs are produced? My post had nothing to do with the power grid.

In any case natural gas would be the cleanest, most reliable energy source for vehicles and we have gobs of it right her in the US.

Not really a renewal or sustainable resource.

And, couldnt agree less about it being reliable.

 

[C-south]

Prius' are some of the most well built cars. Period.

That is a fact.

In fact, Toyota at one time held the patent for specific type of Electric Battery. Many have tried to replicate, and, failed. So they pay Toyota for it's design.

One of the reasons I have Toyota stock.

Also, we are seeing a mad rush to build connectivity in TN for EV charging areas. Grants are for EV stations but as we all know there are multiple uses for the connectivity. Get ready, its coming.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Control? That's kinda funny. I don't know of anyone with a refinery in their backyard, but I know several with sufficient solar capacity to charge an EV.

I'm curious on the 50-100 year estimate. I did a bit of "back of the envelope" work. Numbers were sourced from ChatGPT, so it could be that Skynet is lying to me, but it really isn't as dire as it sounds. Estimate of total generation capacity is about 1100GW. At max production 24x365 (impractical, but I need a boundary), we have available a bit under 10M GWhr annually. Americans drive roughly 3.3 trillion miles annually. A reasonable estimate of EV power usage is 0.4kWhr per mile. If every car in America were an EV, that would require an additional 1.32M GWhr, or roughly 13% of the current max theoretical capacity.

Obviously that's a big deal, but it doesn't sound like a 50-100 year problem to me. If the current rate of solar and wind expansion continues, and MNR tech pays off like it could/should, we would expect to add about that much capacity over the next 10 years. Given that over 60% of the cars on the road are over 10 years old, it's reasonable to believe that gas cars will be less than 50% of what's on the road in 10 years.

It is about control. If it weren't they wouldn't be force feeding it down our throats. What they can do with electric is simply turn off your car. Sure, one can place a solar array in your back yard at tens of $1,000's of dollars to charge up your car. I'm sorry if you're blind to the total social engineering that's going on right now, right under your nose. Every part of your life is being fundamentally changed and most don't realize it. Like I said before, I'm a huge proponent of EVs. I love the idea. It's a falsehood that it will help climate change at all. It won't. Eventually, maybe when fusion power becomes mainstream, it will be a viable option for everyone. I agree it's coming but don't kid yourself into believing it's anything but a power grab.

It's not just about power generation ability, it's about storage. Sure if you use simple math and say we generate x amount of power over a day and with electric cars added we can make up the difference. The problem herein lies when everyone gets home from work at 5:00Pm and plugs in. That surge of need isn't available. How do I know this? Because my son, who graduated from UT as an EE last spring had a whole semester class on it. They do not have a solution.

 

[Orangeburst]

How much electricity would it take to power all cars if they were electric? - USAFacts

And for someone to say a fear mongers how about the **** where we have been told the end of the planet the past 25 years

 

[hog88]

Not really a renewal or sustainable resource.

And, couldnt agree less about it being reliable.

Natural gas is sustainable even Biden's energy department says we have 100 years of proven reserves here in the states and another 400 plus years probable reserves, can't find an estimate for possible reserves. So we have at least 500 years worth of natural gas right here in the US, we wouldn't need to import batteries or their raw materials harvested by child labor nor would we be beholden to foreign interests if we developed our NG distribution system. Not to mention NG production has a minimal effect on the environment compared to the mining of the raw materials needed for EV batteries. NG vehicles are almost zero emissions and what happens on the rare occasion there is a NG spill/leak? It evaporates, so minimal environmental impact. What happens to EV batteries when they are used up? Landfills.

You should care about EVs being reliable, if they aren't reliable people will not buy them and if people do not buy them billions of our tax dollars just got pissed away on another boondoggle that didn't work.

 

[McDad]

Not really a renewal or sustainable resource.

And, couldnt agree less about it being reliable.

If the knock on NG is the issue with renewable or sustainable, wouldn't that also hold true for the minerals used to produce batteries for electric vehicles?

Aren't those components as finite as petroleum and its derivatives?

 

[hog88]

If the knock on NG is the issue with renewable or sustainable, wouldn't that also hold true for the minerals used to produce batteries for electric vehicles?

Aren't those components as finite as petroleum and its derivatives?

Excellent point.

 

[SSVol]

It is about control. If it weren't they wouldn't be force feeding it down our throats. What they can do with electric is simply turn off your car. Sure, one can place a solar array in your back yard at tens of $1,000's of dollars to charge up your car. I'm sorry if you're blind to the total social engineering that's going on right now, right under your nose. Every part of your life is being fundamentally changed and most don't realize it. Like I said before, I'm a huge proponent of EVs. I love the idea. It's a falsehood that it will help climate change at all. It won't. Eventually, maybe when fusion power becomes mainstream, it will be a viable option for everyone. I agree it's coming but don't kid yourself into believing it's anything but a power grab.

It's not just about power generation ability, it's about storage. Sure if you use simple math and say we generate x amount of power over a day and with electric cars added we can make up the difference. The problem herein lies when everyone gets home from work at 5:00Pm and plugs in. That surge of need isn't available. How do I know this? Because my son, who graduated from UT as an EE last spring had a whole semester class on it. They do not have a solution.

Agree to disagree on whether it's easier to switch off gasoline or electricity, and whether we are any more controlled by one than the other. The key difference I see is that I can replace power far easier than gas. It's funny how people fight change though. We've been going through "social engineering" for as long as we've had organized society and governments. That's nothing new, it will never cease to happen, and there will always be those who embrace changes while others fight it.

Like your son, I too am an EE. I am fully aware of how fractional demand systems work and why peak loads are a problem. Admittedly I haven't had an entire class on why something is impossible to solve, but I have spent 30 years in business solving problems that other claimed couldn't be solved. In my opinion, it'll get solved, and it won't take 50-100 years. But that's just my opinion.

We have a saying in the engineering business: "If an old engineer tells you something is possible, take it to the bank. If he tells you it is impossible...find a young engineer". Surprising to me that the young engineer is the one claiming there is no answer.

 

[hog88]

Agree to disagree on whether it's easier to switch off gasoline or electricity, and whether we are any more controlled by one than the other. The key difference I see is that I can replace power far easier than gas. It's funny how people fight change though. We've been going through "social engineering" for as long as we've had organized society and governments. That's nothing new, it will never cease to happen, and there will always be those who embrace changes while others fight it.

Like your son, I too am an EE. I am fully aware of how fractional demand systems work and why peak loads are a problem. Admittedly I haven't had an entire class on why something is impossible to solve, but I have spent 30 years in business solving problems that other claimed couldn't be solved. In my opinion, it'll get solved, and it won't take 50-100 years. But that's just my opinion.

We have a saying in the engineering business: "If an old engineer tells you something is possible, take it to the bank. If he tells you it is impossible...find a young engineer". Surprising to me that the young engineer is the one claiming there is no answer.

You forgot one. If an engineer designed it they didn't figure in maintenance and repair.

 

[SSVol]

If the knock on NG is the issue with renewable or sustainable, wouldn't that also hold true for the minerals used to produce batteries for electric vehicles?

Aren't those components as finite as petroleum and its derivatives?

Sure. But they aren't being consumed by the process of using them to store power. There are a number of development projects working on new battery materials that don't require conflict minerals. Every argument against EVs on the basis of lithium gets invalidated the minute something better comes along, and something better will come along.

 

[hog88]

Sure. But they aren't being consumed by the process of using them to store power. There are a number of development projects working on new battery materials that don't require conflict minerals. Every argument against EVs on the basis of lithium gets invalidated the minute something better comes along, and something better will come along.

I’m all for better cleaner and more reliable battery technology. I just think it’s a terrible idea to put all of our eggs into one basket and ignore the clean reliable energy source we currently have.

 

[SSVol]

I’m all for better cleaner and more reliable battery technology. I just think it’s a terrible idea to put all of our eggs into one basket and ignore the clean reliable energy source we currently have.

I'm not opposed to NG, but for whatever reason is hasn't gained popularity here.

I spent a week in Latvia some time back, and the guy driving me around had a tri-fuel car (gas, E85, and NG...I think), something I'd never seen before. My guess is that wasn't cheap to produce, but where fuel availability is sketchy and the price is high, it's probably viable. I doubt that most Americans would be happy paying what they did for fuel though.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Agree to disagree on whether it's easier to switch off gasoline or electricity, and whether we are any more controlled by one than the other. The key difference I see is that I can replace power far easier than gas. It's funny how people fight change though. We've been going through "social engineering" for as long as we've had organized society and governments. That's nothing new, it will never cease to happen, and there will always be those who embrace changes while others fight it.

Like your son, I too am an EE. I am fully aware of how fractional demand systems work and why peak loads are a problem. Admittedly I haven't had an entire class on why something is impossible to solve, but I have spent 30 years in business solving problems that other claimed couldn't be solved. In my opinion, it'll get solved, and it won't take 50-100 years. But that's just my opinion.

We have a saying in the engineering business: "If an old engineer tells you something is possible, take it to the bank. If he tells you it is impossible...find a young engineer". Surprising to me that the young engineer is the one claiming there is no answer.

Lol, it wasn't a young engineer, it was a seasoned professor. And he didn't say it was impossible, he said it was decades from being solved. And, just because social engineering has been happening, doesn't make it right. I realize you stand to make a crap load of money off it, so I understand you championing it.

 

[hog88]

I'm not opposed to NG, but for whatever reason is hasn't gained popularity here.

I spent a week in Latvia some time back, and the guy driving me around had a tri-fuel car (gas, E85, and NG...I think), something I'd never seen before. My guess is that wasn't cheap to produce, but where fuel availability is sketchy and the price is high, it's probably viable. I doubt that most Americans would be happy paying what they did for fuel though.

It hasn't caught on here for a couple reasons. First being gas/diesel is abundant and cheep and secondly the investment in distribution is more expensive considering it has to remain under pretty high pressure. In the end it would be a much better investment in our future than EVs.

 

[McDad]

Sure. But they aren't being consumed by the process of using them to store power. There are a number of development projects working on new battery materials that don't require conflict minerals. Every argument against EVs on the basis of lithium gets invalidated the minute something better comes along, and something better will come along.

But that isn't your argument, is it? You are castigating one finite resource on the merits of sustainability and renew-ability and giving other finite resources a pass even though it is also unsustainable and non renewable. The fact that something better will come along applies to both as well, doesn't it? Certainly the better thing will not only apply to battery driven cars but also be used in petroleum driven cars, correct?

Lastly, if the batteries are not consumed by the processes, then the battery with last forever. Isn't the degradation in the battery over time proof that it is, indeed, consumed?

 

[SSVol]

Lol, it wasn't a young engineer, it was a seasoned professor. And he didn't say it was impossible, he said it was decades from being solved. And, just because social engineering has been happening, doesn't make it right. I realize you stand to make a crap load of money off it, so I understand you championing it.

Wat? I sell factory control products and I'm within sight of retirement. I make nothing off of it, nor am I championing it. I just think it's happening whether I want it or not, so I might as well try to find the bright spots in it.

 

[SSVol]

But that isn't your argument, is it? You are castigating one finite resource on the merits of sustainability and renew-ability and giving other finite resources a pass even though it is also unsustainable and non renewable. The fact that something better will come along applies to both as well, doesn't it? Certainly the better thing will not only apply to battery driven cars but also be used in petroleum driven cars, correct?

Lastly, if the batteries are not consumed by the processes, then the battery with last forever. Isn't the degradation in the battery over time proof that it is, indeed, consumed?

It's a battery...a chemical reaction...not a nuclear reaction. The amount of lithium isn't being reduced by the process of using the battery. The amount of fossil fuels in the ground are absolutely being reduced when we burn them. Not even close to the same thing.

Yes, there is entropy in every system, but if the lithium can be recycled into new batteries while being powered by renewable sources, the system has lost nothing. Until and unless we find a way to efficiently create gasoline from the sun, the entropy of burning petroleum isn't sustainable.

Again, doesn't really matter what we think. It's coming whether we want it or not. I just choose to look for the positive aspects of it.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Wat? I sell factory control products and I'm within sight of retirement. I make nothing off of it, nor am I championing it. I just think it's happening whether I want it or not, so I might as well try to find the bright spots in it.

LOL, you seem to be pushing it pretty hard. Do they use factory control products in manufacturing components of electric vehicles? Like I've said numerous times, I love the future of EV's. My problem is the government seems to be putting the horse before the cart. It should be phased in over time. I always ask.. "Why are they doing this?" I really can't find a good, logical answer. You're an engineer, I think probably a pretty dang good one, I would think you'd be asking those questions as well.

 

[McDad]

It's a battery...a chemical reaction...not a nuclear reaction. The amount of lithium isn't being reduced by the process of using the battery. The amount of fossil fuels in the ground are absolutely being reduced when we burn them. Not even close to the same thing.

Yes, there is entropy in every system, but if the lithium can be recycled into new batteries while being powered by renewable sources, the system has lost nothing. Until and unless we find a way to efficiently create gasoline from the sun, the entropy of burning petroleum isn't sustainable.

Again, doesn't really matter what we think. It's coming whether we want it or not. I just choose to look for the positive aspects of it.

If Li is recyclable, it isn't finite. If accurate, then your position to critique NG on those merits and exclude Li is valid.

 

[LouderVol]

It is about control. If it weren't they wouldn't be force feeding it down our throats. What they can do with electric is simply turn off your car. Sure, one can place a solar array in your back yard at tens of $1,000's of dollars to charge up your car. I'm sorry if you're blind to the total social engineering that's going on right now, right under your nose. Every part of your life is being fundamentally changed and most don't realize it. Like I said before, I'm a huge proponent of EVs. I love the idea. It's a falsehood that it will help climate change at all. It won't. Eventually, maybe when fusion power becomes mainstream, it will be a viable option for everyone. I agree it's coming but don't kid yourself into believing it's anything but a power grab.

It's not just about power generation ability, it's about storage. Sure if you use simple math and say we generate x amount of power over a day and with electric cars added we can make up the difference. The problem herein lies when everyone gets home from work at 5:00Pm and plugs in. That surge of need isn't available. How do I know this? Because my son, who graduated from UT as an EE last spring had a whole semester class on it. They do not have a solution.

There are plenty of solutions. Some of which already exist. Staggered charging based on demand/supply. I know you can schedule the actual charging even after its plugged in to be at periods of less demand.

It was possible 12/13 years ago, we did it in school. Unfortunately that type of planned power draw tech got dropped on its head by Obama in his push to make PVs more viable.

We dropped soooooo much green tech ideas by the wayside in Obama's rush to make solar work. Hybrid energy solutions or energy recovery/conversion, similar to cars, you see some of this with heat pumps, but the applications were generally endless.

We worked with some guys out at ORNL that had all types of crazy stuff that worked but wasnt "consumable" yet by the general public.

If you care about the environment at all you should curse Obama. He legit set us back at least 50 years.

 

[Orangeburst]

.

 

[SSVol]

LOL, you seem to be pushing it pretty hard. Do they use factory control products in manufacturing components of electric vehicles? Like I've said numerous times, I love the future of EV's. My problem is the government seems to be putting the horse before the cart. It should be phased in over time. I always ask.. "Why are they doing this?" I really can't find a good, logical answer. You're an engineer, I think probably a pretty dang good one, I would think you'd be asking those questions as well.

Oh I suppose some of them do use my stuff, but there is no particular windfall to me due to EVs.

I think the logical answer is that it takes a long time to turn a boat the size of the automotive industry, and whether or not I personally believe that anthropogenic global warming is real or not (I don't), some well-meaning people do. Given that, plus the leverage that oil producing countries exert on us economically through how much they choose to pump, or not, moving to a power source for our cars that 1) isn't finite, and 2) isn't controlled by people who like to yank our chain, just seems prudent. You can have reasonable debates regarding how the government is going about it, but the size of the boat they are turning mandates that they push as hard as they reasonably believe they can.

Again, JMO. Your mileage may vary.

 

[SSVol]

If Li is recyclable, it isn't finite. If accurate, then your position to critique NG on those merits and exclude Li is valid.

Lithium is finite, but can be recycled. It is not consumed by a battery. The structure of the battery degrades over time due to the formation of dendrites or other chemical, not nuclear, changes. The only question is whether it is economically viable to recycle, and economic viability is a moving target. We will not run out of lithium, but it may eventually become cost prohibitive to use. We will build batteries out of more plentiful materials long before that happens.

 

[LouderVol]

Lithium is finite, but can be recycled. It is not consumed by a battery. The structure of the battery degrades over time due to the formation of dendrites or other chemical, not nuclear, changes. The only question is whether it is economically viable to recycle, and economic viability is a moving target. We will not run out of lithium, but it may eventually become cost prohibitive to use. We will build batteries out of more plentiful materials long before that happens.

One thing ORNL was looking at was seeing if nano-building batteries made sense. Basically use any material manufactured in specific means to do similar to the chemical reaction found with current battery ideas.