ESPN article: Rick Barnes proving to be the right choice for Tennessee

[bleedingTNorange]

That’s my point. This UT basketball team is so much on fire right now I’m almost starting to expect it.

Don’t.

1. Even the best teams done expect F4, the tourney is so much about luck and matchups that you can’t expect that, especially from a program that has 1 E8.

2. It is so much more fun to be pleasantly surprised than disappointed because you expected something...meaning I would like to get the best seed possible and let’s see what happens. If we make a S16 that is an awesome season, I don’t want to be disappointed by that result because I was expecting a F4.

 

[BigZiti09]

I literally said even I didn’t see this coming...however I did see improvement and stayed of the opinion we would be a fringe bubble team this year which would’ve been another step in the right direction.

I’m.m not gonna pull every quote or interview but he and his assistants have all mentioned their recruiting philosophy and their trust in their player development multiple times.

There’s a difference in being reluctant to buy in and constant b!tching about his recruiting and saying he’s simply here to collect a check.

I like reluctant Ziti, gives us something to bicker about lol

I have complained about his recruiting but it's been overblown by this board IMO. I don't think I've ever been one of the guys saying he's here to collect a check. I've questioned whether or not he believed this is a good job. I still think he will be surprised at how basketball crazy this place can become.

If I bought in on RB what would we talk about all week?

 

[VolsSportsFan]

I have complained about his recruiting but it's been overblown by this board IMO. I don't think I've ever been one of the guys saying he's here to collect a check. I've questioned whether or not he believed this is a good job. I still think he will be surprised at how basketball crazy this place can become.

If I bought in on RB what would we talk about all week?

Dallas.

 

[jtipto10]

I have complained about his recruiting but it's been overblown by this board IMO. I don't think I've ever been one of the guys saying he's here to collect a check. I've questioned whether or not he believed this is a good job. I still think he will be surprised at how basketball crazy this place can become.

If I bought in on RB what would we talk about all week?

I still don't understand why people think this is an either/or type of situation with recruiting. You can get highly rated players AND lower system guys and then coach them ALL up. I've pretty much been in line with your thinking this whole time. I thought Barnes was a good stabilizing hire (especially considering his age) and have been pleased with the results. I don't at all think I've been "proven wrong" with this team's success so far in regards to either Barnes or recruiting. My response is pretty much always "yeah then imagine how good they'd be with collin sexton running the point". There will always be a place for NBA talent on a college roster and it shows in every final four game. It still puzzles me why we aren't in on more big time prospects. Simons seems to be the only one as of now.

Either way, this team has been a ton of fun and they are easy to get behind. No bad apples. It seems like Barnes has literally Moneyball'd this roster. We could go from quality team to great team with simons.

 

[BigZiti09]

I still don't understand why people think this is an either/or type of situation with recruiting. You can get highly rated players AND lower system guys and then coach them ALL up. I've pretty much been in line with your thinking this whole time. I thought Barnes was a good stabilizing hire (especially considering his age) and have been pleased with the results. I don't at all think I've been "proven wrong" with this team's success so far in regards to either Barnes or recruiting. My response is pretty much always "yeah then imagine how good they'd be with collin sexton running the point". There will always be a place for NBA talent on a college roster and it shows in every final four game. It still puzzles me why we aren't in on more big time prospects. Simons seems to be the only one as of now.

Either way, this team has been a ton of fun and they are easy to get behind. No bad apples. It seems like Barnes has literally Moneyball'd this roster. We could go from quality team to great team with simons.

Good post.

We have similar thoughts. I'm not even asking for the 5* one and dones like Simons. I think we build this thing with 4 year players. But.... you can do that with top 100 guys too. Hard to really say anything right now though cause we are on fire and it gets twisted as wanting higher rated classes instead of wins. Like you said it's not either/or but that's the way it's perceived on here.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I still don't understand why people think this is an either/or type of situation with recruiting. You can get highly rated players AND lower system guys and then coach them ALL up. I've pretty much been in line with your thinking this whole time. I thought Barnes was a good stabilizing hire (especially considering his age) and have been pleased with the results. I don't at all think I've been "proven wrong" with this team's success so far in regards to either Barnes or recruiting. My response is pretty much always "yeah then imagine how good they'd be with collin sexton running the point". There will always be a place for NBA talent on a college roster and it shows in every final four game. It still puzzles me why we aren't in on more big time prospects. Simons seems to be the only one as of now.

Either way, this team has been a ton of fun and they are easy to get behind. No bad apples. It seems like Barnes has literally Moneyball'd this roster. We could go from quality team to great team with simons.

First and foremost they are going to sign kids that fit thos program and what Barnes requires...Barnes was asked recently about why the team chemistry is so good and he credited his assistants with their evaluations on the recruiting trail of finding the right guys.

We had Mostella on this team, he was the kind of recruit you’re referring to, but he was a bad apple and someone Barnes couldn’t get to buy in. Hubbs was a 5*, but he didn’t defend the way Barnes requires and so they did butt heads a few times.

So when you look at say the Top 100 guys, if you eliminate the ones who don’t fit your style of play, eliminate those with academic concerns, eliminate those who you don’t feel will defend, eliminate those who you feel will be a locker room issue...you probably have 10 or so guys left. Tennessee has targeted some more highly rated guys and has missed, so sure if they had landed 1 or 2 of those guys who knows? But I just don’t agree with taking a Derrick Mostella for example because he’s got 4 stars next to his name and all the fans will be excited over taking a guy like Lamonte Turner?

Purdue has 2 Top 100 players on their entire roster and are arguably the best team in CBB, neither of which were Top 50 iirc, I don’t buy that you have to have a bunch of 4 & 5 stars to win big...and Barnes clearly has proven that this year, not sure how you could argue otherwise.

 

[jtipto10]

Good post.

We have similar thoughts. I'm not even asking for the 5* one and dones like Simons. I think we build this thing with 4 year players. But.... you can do that with top 100 guys too. Hard to really say anything right now though cause we are on fire and it gets twisted as wanting higher rated classes instead of wins. Like you said it's not either/or but that's the way it's perceived on here.

Yup. Grayson allen's and Joel Berry's can get you far.

 

[jtipto10]

First and foremost they are going to sign kids that fit thos program and what Barnes requires...Barnes was asked recently about why the team chemistry is so good and he credited his assistants with their evaluations on the recruiting trail of finding the right guys.

We had Mostella on this team, he was the kind of recruit you’re referring to, but he was a bad apple and someone Barnes couldn’t get to buy in. Hubbs was a 5*, but he didn’t defend the way Barnes requires and so they did butt heads a few times.

So when you look at say the Top 100 guys, if you eliminate the ones who don’t fit your style of play, eliminate those with academic concerns, eliminate those who you don’t feel will defend, eliminate those who you feel will be a locker room issue...you probably have 10 or so guys left. Tennessee has targeted some more highly rated guys and has missed, so sure if they had landed 1 or 2 of those guys who knows? But I just don’t agree with taking a Derrick Mostella for example because he’s got 4 stars next to his name and all the fans will be excited over taking a guy like Lamonte Turner?

Purdue has 2 Top 100 players on their entire roster and are arguably the best team in CBB, neither of which were Top 50 iirc, I don’t buy that you have to have a bunch of 4 & 5 stars to win big...and Barnes clearly has proven that this year, not sure how you could argue otherwise.

Here let me help:
Purdue has 2 Top 100 players on their entire roster and are arguably the best team in CBB

Also, never made the argument you have to have a bunch as you state. I actually think our best teams were lofton and J. smith mixed with T. smith and Chism. Same goes for cuonzo's horribly underperforming squads with J. Rich and Maymon along with stokes and mcrae. You can mix and match these things. But for some reason you repeatedly are convinced that 1. most top 100 players are bad apples or can't play D and 2. people want only top 100 players. No one here is making that argument, so please for the love of God quit attacking it.

My favorite part of posting in the bball forum, which I don't do often, is seeing BTO poop himself in response to all of my posts

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Here let me help:
Purdue has 2 Top 100 players on their entire roster and are arguably the best team in CBB

Also, never made the argument you have to have a bunch as you state. I actually think our best teams were lofton and J. smith mixed with T. smith and Chism. Same goes for cuonzo's horribly underperforming squads with J. Rich and Maymon along with stokes and mcrae. You can mix and match these things. But for some reason you repeatedly are convinced that 1. most top 100 players are bad apples or can't play D and 2. people want only top 100 players. No one here is making that argument, so please for the love of God quit attacking it.

My favorite part of posting in the bball forum, which I don't do often, is seeing BTO poop himself in response to all of my posts

I never said you said you had to have a bunch, why are you making things up that I supposedly said?

Maybe that’s why I apparently trigger you because you imagine I am saying things that I clearly didn’t? Weird.

 

[jtipto10]

I never said you said you had to have a bunch, why are you making things up that I supposedly said?

Maybe that’s why I apparently trigger you because you imagine I am saying things that I clearly didn’t? Weird.

Purdue has 2 Top 100 players on their entire roster and are arguably the best team in CBB, neither of which were Top 50 iirc, I don’t buy that you have to have a bunch of 4 & 5 stars to win big...and Barnes clearly has proven that this year, not sure how you could argue otherwise.

lol it's literally right there. I was not "arguing otherwise", but you, at the very least, heavily insinuated I did.

 

[BigZiti09]

Isaac Haas - 4* top 100 - Senior
Nojel Eastern - 4* top 100 - Freshman
Carson Edwards - 4* top 100 - sophomore

Vince Edwards - 4* 124 - Senior
Dakota Mathias - 3* 147 - Senior
Ryan Cline - 3* 141 Junior
PJ Thompson - 3* - Senior
Jaquil Taylor - 3* - Senior
Matt Haarms - 3* - Freshman

 

[bleedingTNorange]

lol it's literally right there. I was not "arguing otherwise", but you, at the very least, heavily insinuated I did.

I just disagree that “it shows in every final four game” that you need a NBA talent, as others have mentioned George Mason sure didn’t have that on their roster. And if you wanna eliminate those kinds of teams and say just the best teams...well Virginia/Purdue/Villanova the 3 best teams in CBB don’t have a single 1 and done and likely have 1 or 2 NBA guys among them.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Isaac Haas - 4* top 100 - Senior
Nojel Eastern - 4* top 100 - Freshman
Carson Edwards - 4* top 100 - sophomore

Vince Edwards - 4* 124 - Senior
Dakota Mathias - 3* 147 - Senior
Ryan Cline - 3* 141 Junior
PJ Thompson - 3* - Senior
Jaquil Taylor - 3* - Senior
Matt Haarms - 3* - Freshman

Edwards not Top 100 per 247 national ranking or composite...so like I said, 2 Top 100 players on their entire roster. Not sure of your reasoning on posting the others?

 

[BigZiti09]

247 sucks and their composite is worse. I used Rivals.

I was just posting their roster/contributors.

Four - 4* players (3 of them top 100)
Six - top 150 players
Five - seniors in the rotations (4* top 100, 4* top 100 and 3* top 150)

 

[BigZiti09]

Purdue is a good example though of what Barnes can do here. Biggest thing I see is he's recruiting just a notch better than Barnes rankings wise and he's getting guys to stay for the long haul.

Side note: Painter has two 4* signed for 2018. Both outside the top 100 though.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

Again, the people worrying about recruiting haven’t been saying bring me the #125 player, they’ve been saying bring me the Top 30-100 guys...that’s my point with Purdue, they have 2 Top 100 guys on their roster and are arguably the best team in CBB. I’m not gonna argue the difference in a guy ranked 124/151, to me that difference is probably negligible.

 

[jtipto10]

I just disagree that “it shows in every final four game” that you need a NBA talent, as others have mentioned George Mason sure didn’t have that on their roster. And if you wanna eliminate those kinds of teams and say just the best teams...well Virginia/Purdue/Villanova the 3 best teams in CBB don’t have a single 1 and done and likely have 1 or 2 NBA guys among them.

I'm not sure choosing that one team from 12 years ago strengthens your argument.

But for the sake of argument, I went through the past 4 final fours (14, 15, 16, and 17). I did this fairly quickly so I may be off on some (feel free to double check), it seems the only team to make a final four that didn't feature and eventual draft pick was Florida in 2014. That even includes South Carolina last year and the super random 10th seeded Syracuse in 2016 which had three eventual draft picks. So yes, not every final four team has NBA draft picks. Just the vast majority. I'll give you that point on a technicality, although technically I said game and not team even though that was not my actual point.

As for this year, the top 3 teams have a combined at most 3 picks (2 from Nova). But we have yet to see the final four, and this is a weird year as far as parity goes.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

I'm not sure choosing that one team from 12 years ago strengthens your argument.

But for the sake of argument, I went through the past 4 final fours (14, 15, 16, and 17). I did this fairly quickly so I may be off on some (feel free to double check), it seems the only team to make a final four that didn't feature and eventual draft pick was Florida in 2014. That even includes South Carolina last year and the super random 10th seeded Syracuse in 2016 which had three eventual draft picks. So yes, not every final four team has NBA draft picks. Just the vast majority. I'll give you that point on a technicality, although technically I said game and not team even though that was not my actual point.

As for this year, the top 3 teams have a combined at most 3 picks (2 from Nova). But we have yet to see the final four, and this is a weird year as far as parity goes.

But that was my point...if you’re gonna say final 4 then you’ve gotta include just final 4 teams including the Butler’s or George Masons or VCU’s etc...if you wanna say those are fluke teams and clearly not the best 4 or 5 teams in CBB, then look at the best 4/5 teams which include Nova, Purdue and Virginia and like you said they lack the NBA players.

I get your point and what you’re saying, but with the one and done and parity across the country I just have thought and this year seemingly is pretty good evidence, that having those NBA guys isn’t the only way to get it done...there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[jtipto10]

But that was my point...if you’re gonna say final 4 then you’ve gotta include just final 4 teams including the Butler’s or George Masons or VCU’s etc...if you wanna say those are fluke teams and clearly not the best 4 or 5 teams in CBB, then look at the best 4/5 teams which include Nova, Purdue and Virginia and like you said they lack the NBA players.

I get your point and what you’re saying, but with the one and done and parity across the country I just have thought and this year seemingly is pretty good evidence, that having those NBA guys isn’t the only way to get it done...there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

I don't think it's literally the only way. I just think it gives you a far, FAR, better chance and history has shown us that over and over and over and over again. You can't treat them as equally valid approaches when objective data shows us they are not. You can skin a cat with a knife or a spoon, but the knife is going to win the race 9.9/10 times.

Also fwiw both Butler team's had draft picks

 

[BigZiti09]

Again, the people worrying about recruiting haven’t been saying bring me the #125 player, they’ve been saying bring me the Top 30-100 guys...that’s my point with Purdue, they have 2 Top 100 guys on their roster and are arguably the best team in CBB. I’m not gonna argue the difference in a guy ranked 124/151, to me that difference is probably negligible.

He's got 3 guys in the top 100. We have 1 if we are counting Pons as top 100 which I do because he's ranked on 247 and Rivals gave a 4* but didn't give him a number.

And Purdue has got more top 150 guys than us.

He's got 3 seniors that are top 150. It's a good example of what Barnes is probably wanting to do. Painter has recruited a little better than Barnes you have to admit. Barnes though seems to be upping his sights just a little as well.

Purdue is probably as close as a blueprint as you'll find.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I don't think it's literally the only way. I just think it gives you a far, FAR, better chance and history has shown us that over and over and over and over again. You can't treat them as equally valid approaches when objective data shows us they are not. You can skin a cat with a knife or a spoon, but the knife is going to win the race 9.9/10 times.

Also fwiw both Butler team's had draft picks

Alexander is looking like he could make it to being drafted. It won't shock me if 2 or 3 from this roster earn an NBA paycheck and play a minute or three.

 

[jtipto10]

Alexander is looking like he could make it to being drafted. It won't shock me if 2 or 3 from this roster earn an NBA paycheck and play a minute or three.

I actually think right now he's our most likely draft prospect. He's developing elite shot blocking skills and his outside shot has come a long way. If he can keep extending his range, I can see him sneaking into the second round.

Could also see bowden of schofield working their way in as 3 and D guys. Think williams has to get faster and more accurate from the three before he is considered. It's hard to play back to the basket in the NBA at 6'6" or 6'7"

 

[BigZiti09]

He's got 3 guys in the top 100. We have 1 if we are counting Pons as top 100 which I do because he's ranked on 247 and Rivals gave a 4* but didn't give him a number.

And Purdue has got more top 150 guys than us.

He's got 3 seniors that are top 150. It's a good example of what Barnes is probably wanting to do. Painter has recruited a little better than Barnes you have to admit. Barnes though seems to be upping his sights just a little as well.

Purdue is probably as close as a blueprint as you'll find.

Another sidebar to this.....

Painter made the sweet 16 last year with pretty much the same guys minus freshman Nojel Eastern, a grad transfer from Michigan and 5* first round draft pick Caleb Swanigan.

The year before that they had a lot of the same guys plus NBA draft pick AJ Hammons who was a 4* top 100 guy.



So yeah, purdue is doing it without a ton of top 100 guys but they've got 3 which is nothing to sneeze at AND 1 of those guys is a senior. On top of that they have 2 more seniors that are top 150.

But you can't just look at 1 year and say this is how it always is for Purdue. They are bringing in two 4* next year and they've sent guys to the NBA the past two seasons. (5* and a top 100 4*)

So in summary, Purdue is a good example of what you can do without burning the world up in recruiting. But they are recruiting a notch better than us. And getting guys to stick around seems key.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I actually think right now he's our most likely draft prospect. He's developing elite shot blocking skills and his outside shot has come a long way. If he can keep extending his range, I can see him sneaking into the second round.

Could also see bowden of schofield working their way in as 3 and D guys. Think williams has to get faster and more accurate from the three before he is considered. It's hard to play back to the basket in the NBA at 6'6" or 6'7"

I think that Johnson and Pons could develop and get paid. Both are freshmen and could get much better under Barnes.

I have heard that Johnson was actually keeping an injury to himself earlier and that it was more serious than he thought. It wasn't a great source, but it would make sense. My biggest criticism of JJ, after watching him a little during the RTL, was that it didn't appear that he had a perimeter shot. But Schofield says otherwise and his form looks better 7 months later. Maybe he'll break out next year.

 

[1200DPI]

Cuonzo's success this year is impressive.

Last year before Cuonzo, Missouri's record was:

8-24 overall, 2-16 in conference.

Cuonzo this year:

16-8 overall, 6-5 in conference including 3 road wins.

His one year turnaround is amazing.

Obviously Cuonzo continues to develop his coaching skills.

Barnes has done well over three years but Cuonzo is getting it done much quicker.