Federal Indictment of Donald Trump

[hog88]

The issue, particularly for criminal charges, is intent.

Given what we know it would appear there is no intent behind Biden having the documents and it is almost certainly just a mistake when he left. The fact it is so few and they were found during a move strongly suggests that.

Trump, on the other hand, had a large number of them and from reports many were not secure in any way. Even worse, it is evident that Trump intended to keep them because he turned down multiple requests for their return.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an investigation into it and I'm thinking we need some kind of official in the WH at the end of a term who is responsible for reviewing everything that leaves to make sure this does not happen again. But the dividing line between negligent and criminal in this situation is intent and we KNOW Trump had intent at least in keeping them and there is no evidence (and on the face of the situation no reason to think) that Biden had any intent.

And the question as to Trump remains why. Why on Earth would he keep so many documents when he'd been asked over and over to return them?

Intent doesn't matter in this case, Trump as POTUS could "wave his magic wand" and declassify whatever he chose. There is no set procedure or protocol a POTUS must adhere in order to declassify documents. Biden as VP without question or doubt was breaking the law being in possession of those documents, intent doesn't matter in mishandling classified documents.

 

[volinbham]

The issue, particularly for criminal charges, is intent.

Given what we know it would appear there is no intent behind Biden having the documents and it is almost certainly just a mistake when he left. The fact it is so few and they were found during a move strongly suggests that.

Trump, on the other hand, had a large number of them and from reports many were not secure in any way. Even worse, it is evident that Trump intended to keep them because he turned down multiple requests for their return.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an investigation into it and I'm thinking we need some kind of official in the WH at the end of a term who is responsible for reviewing everything that leaves to make sure this does not happen again. But the dividing line between negligent and criminal in this situation is intent and we KNOW Trump had intent at least in keeping them and there is no evidence (and on the face of the situation no reason to think) that Biden had any intent.

And the question as to Trump remains why. Why on Earth would he keep so many documents when he'd been asked over and over to return them?

we cannot say there was no intent behind Biden having the documents

we cannot say they've found all of them (to the "so few" argument)

we know he had the highest level of classification documents in possession and it appears Trump did not (interestingly enough Hillary also had the highest level in her possession)

Biden's were no more secure than Trump's and were in an organization that is funded at least in part by the Chinese.

So yes the difference is that Trump was more difficult in cooperation but at the core (what was in possession, how it was stored and the level of classification) there is no material difference. If possession of such documents is irresponsible, dangerous and criminal then it is in both cases.

 

[volinbham]

as to Biden's intent - given his son's involvement with Ukraine it's quite plausible that daddy took some documents pertaining to Ukraine he felt to be of interest vis a vis his son's ventures.

he may have forgotten he took them but that doesn't mean they were not purposely taken at the time.

this wasn't some Presidential library - it was some think tank that paid big salaries to several current WH staffers and received $22 million in anonymous donations from the Chinese

 

[DinkinFlicka]

That’s an astute observation, barkeep. Why, with that set of skills, they’ll be teaching you how correctly pour a beer in no time.

(That was commentary on the absurdity of their reporting)

I know you assume we have the same capability of internet research, but we don't. It's painfully clear over the years that you page 1 Google your **** and run with it. Lol.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/10/politics/biden-classified-documents-trump-garland

As I told Dave, I'm aware this is their actual report.

I was commenting on how ridiculous it is. I hope you twats don't quit your day jobs to pursue, like, anything else.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

Intent doesn't matter in this case, Trump as POTUS could "wave his magic wand" and declassify whatever he chose. There is no set procedure or protocol a POTUS must adhere in order to declassify documents. Biden as VP without question or doubt was breaking the law being in possession of those documents, intent doesn't matter in mishandling classified documents.

Something else for you Trumpliars to deny, dance around, hide, and whataboutism.
=================================
HOW DOES DECLASSIFICATION WORK?

There's also a detailed process for declassification with rules laid out under executive order. Typically, if a president wants to declassify something, he checks with the agency in charge, which has broad say in whether the information becomes public, Gerstell said.


If documents are declassified, there’s usually a painstaking process of blacking out what information still stays secret. “It’s not a question of a concept being declassified, or boxes of documents. It’s a word by word determination,” he said.


The declassification order must be memorialized and any agencies that are affected have to be notified, Moss said. The individual documents then have to be re-marked to show they’re no longer considered classified.


“It’s not clear what Jedi-like lawyers said that you could declassify things with a thought, but the courts are unlikely to embrace that claim,” said Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor who was a Republican witness during the first impeachment proceedings against Trump in 2019.

The Justice Department has said there is no indication that Trump took any steps to declassify the documents seized from his Florida home.

Source: Can a President Declassify Documents and How Does the Process Work? – NBC4 Washington

Yes, there is a procedure
President Obama issued Executive Order 13526. The document is long, but it lays out the procedures for declassifying information, including all of the mechanisms involved (there's a lot of Federal agencies with fingers in this pie). Ultimately, there is this

Sec. 3.7. National Declassification Center (a) There is established within the National Archives a National Declassification Center to streamline declassification processes, facilitate quality-assurance measures, and implement standardized training regarding the declassification of records determined to have permanent historical value. There shall be a Director of the Center who shall be appointed or removed by the Archivist in consultation with the Secretaries of State, Defense, Energy, and Homeland Security, the Attorney General, and the Director of National Intelligence.​

So there is a process for declassifying material. Neither Trump, nor Biden, have rescinded this Executive Order.

Source: Does a US President have to file any paperwork to declassify information?

 

[davethevol]

Back to the topic, great chance there was criminal intent with Biden’s possession of these documents. Ridiculous.

 

[NCFisher]

This is maybe the stupidest argument ever made.

Are you able to articulate your objection?

 

[NCFisher]

If you guys can't acknowledge the differences between the situations you have lost all objectivity.

The differences posited by CNN are observational, not legal. Only one of the two men was ever the constitutionally delegated classification authority. That argument matters to the point of...trumping...all other distinctions.

Which is why DOJ constructed a perjury/obstruction trap; it was the only avenue to make a legal criminal case of it because DOJ does not want to argue against existing case law, or argue declassification authority in front of SCOTUS. @ClearwaterVol

 

[ClearwaterVol]

Are you able to articulate your objection?

Was Trump in possession of top secret documents? Yes.

Was he president at the time? Nope

Could he remove the top secret tag? No, because he wasn't president.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Lol . . . This is a real graphic from the CNN article. What a lame attempt to minimize with "Some top secret" and showing document totals as if anything above zero isn't a problem.

Time to regulate CNN as a political action committee IMO

 

[ClearwaterVol]

we cannot say there was no intent behind Biden having the documents

we cannot say they've found all of them (to the "so few" argument)

we know he had the highest level of classification documents in possession and it appears Trump did not (interestingly enough Hillary also had the highest level in her possession)

Biden's were no more secure than Trump's and were in an organization that is funded at least in part by the Chinese.

So yes the difference is that Trump was more difficult in cooperation but at the core (what was in possession, how it was stored and the level of classification) there is no material difference. If possession of such documents is irresponsible, dangerous and criminal then it is in both cases.

Trump is funded by the Russians.
Biden disclosed possession of the documents instead of lying.


Both deserve punishment, one would seem to have a higher level of culpability based upon intentional conduct.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

The differences posited by CNN are observational, not legal. Only one of the two men was ever the constitutionally delegated classification authority. That argument matters to the point of...trumping...all other distinctions.

Which is why DOJ constructed a perjury/obstruction trap; it was the only avenue to make a legal criminal case of it because DOJ does not want to argue against existing case law, or argue declassification authority in front of SCOTUS. @ClearwaterVol

Trump had no power to declassify anything at the time the law was broken. That is a red herring and I am amazed that anyone with 46 chromosomes would argue.

 

[OrangeTsar]

The issue, particularly for criminal charges, is intent.

Given what we know it would appear there is no intent behind Biden having the documents and it is almost certainly just a mistake when he left. The fact it is so few and they were found during a move strongly suggests that.

Trump, on the other hand, had a large number of them and from reports many were not secure in any way. Even worse, it is evident that Trump intended to keep them because he turned down multiple requests for their return.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be an investigation into it and I'm thinking we need some kind of official in the WH at the end of a term who is responsible for reviewing everything that leaves to make sure this does not happen again. But the dividing line between negligent and criminal in this situation is intent and we KNOW Trump had intent at least in keeping them and there is no evidence (and on the face of the situation no reason to think) that Biden had any intent.

And the question as to Trump remains why. Why on Earth would he keep so many documents when he'd been asked over and over to return them?

I say prosecute them both. Then send FBI teams to the homes of all living ex presidents to make sure they don’t have an documents either. Either apply the same rules to everybody or else to no one

 

[ClearwaterVol]

I say prosecute them both. Then send FBI teams to the homes of all living ex presidents to make sure they don’t have an documents either. Either apply the same rules to everybody or else to no one

So, you’re in favor of expanding governmental power and removing the fourth amendment from the constitution.

 

[OrangeTsar]

So, you’re in favor of expanding governmental power and removing the fourth amendment from the constitution.

If it is going to be done in an inconstant manner, sure. Fourth Amendment has already been effectively removed anyway when government started data mining your online presence and requesting your social media history from big tech without a warrant. Oh, let’s not forget Rep Schiff getting phone records for his political opponents without a warrant.
All I ask is for the laws to be applied impartiality

 

[InVOLuntary]

Trump is funded by the Russians.
Biden disclosed possession of the documents instead of lying.


Both deserve punishment, one would seem to have a higher level of culpability based upon intentional conduct.

10% for the big guy.

 

[hog88]

Something else for you Trumpliars to deny, dance around, hide, and whataboutism.
=================================
HOW DOES DECLASSIFICATION WORK?

There's also a detailed process for declassification with rules laid out under executive order. Typically, if a president wants to declassify something, he checks with the agency in charge, which has broad say in whether the information becomes public, Gerstell said.


If documents are declassified, there’s usually a painstaking process of blacking out what information still stays secret. “It’s not a question of a concept being declassified, or boxes of documents. It’s a word by word determination,” he said.


The declassification order must be memorialized and any agencies that are affected have to be notified, Moss said. The individual documents then have to be re-marked to show they’re no longer considered classified.


“It’s not clear what Jedi-like lawyers said that you could declassify things with a thought, but the courts are unlikely to embrace that claim,” said Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor who was a Republican witness during the first impeachment proceedings against Trump in 2019.

The Justice Department has said there is no indication that Trump took any steps to declassify the documents seized from his Florida home.

Source: Can a President Declassify Documents and How Does the Process Work? – NBC4 Washington

Yes, there is a procedure
President Obama issued Executive Order 13526. The document is long, but it lays out the procedures for declassifying information, including all of the mechanisms involved (there's a lot of Federal agencies with fingers in this pie). Ultimately, there is this

Sec. 3.7. National Declassification Center (a) There is established within the National Archives a National Declassification Center to streamline declassification processes, facilitate quality-assurance measures, and implement standardized training regarding the declassification of records determined to have permanent historical value. There shall be a Director of the Center who shall be appointed or removed by the Archivist in consultation with the Secretaries of State, Defense, Energy, and Homeland Security, the Attorney General, and the Director of National Intelligence.​

So there is a process for declassifying material. Neither Trump, nor Biden, have rescinded this Executive Order.

Source: Does a US President have to file any paperwork to declassify information?

If you thoroughly read your source material you would have noticed in your first link the use of "typically" which means not always and "usually" which means there have been exceptions. There is no prescribed method a POTUS must follow in order to declassify documents. Even within your link it brings up the instances where Trump declassified material related to the RussiaGate investigation and all he did was announce it publicly.

As for BOs executive order it doesn't address presidential authority so it has no bearing on this conversation.

And to your last link. Even SCOTUS agrees that the president can "waive a magic wand" and declassify except in certain instances.

The 1988 Supreme Court case Navy v. Egan confirmed that classification authority flows from the president except in specific instances separated from his powers by law. And here is where things get theological: A president can make most documents classified or declassified simply by willing them so. This peculiar power is so great that the government has an office that exists solely to manage it: the Information Security Oversight Office...
...J. William Leonard, led the office under George W. Bush, and he confirmed the lack of general limitation of his boss’s power. While a president is president, Leonard told me, “the rules and procedures governing the classification and declassification of information apply to everyone else.” And that means Trump could have declassified whatever he wished (again, with specific limitations soon to be discussed) before carting it off to Mar-a-Lago. He would not have had to file paperwork—just “utter the magic words,” Leonard told me. He could have waved his hand over the U-Haul trailer as it headed out the White House driveway and down I-95 toward Florida, and there would have been no classified material in there to mishandle.
Leonard noted important caveats, however. First, Trump’s power to declassify ended with his presidency. Second, that U-Haul could be reclassified by someone else. (Depending on traffic and the sharpness of the Biden administration, I would imagine it could have been reclassified somewhere around Fredericksburg, Virginia.) And third, there are certain materials that presidents cannot classify and declassify at will. One such category of material is the identity of spies.
Another is nuclear secrets. The Atomic Energy Acts of 1946 and 1954 produced an even stranger category of classified knowledge. Anything related to the production or use of nuclear weapons and nuclear power is inherently classified, and Trump could utter whatever words he pleased yet still be in possession of classified material. Where are our nuclear warheads? What tricks have we developed to make sure they work? This information is “born secret” no matter who produces it. The restrictions on documents of this type are incredibly tight. In the unlikely event that Trump came up with a new way to enrich uranium, and scribbled it on a cocktail napkin poolside at Mar-a-Lago early this year, that napkin would instantly have become a classified document subject to various controls and procedures, and possibly illegal for the former president to possess. Of course if he did so, no prosecutor would pursue him. A certain amount of leeway is crucial to the system.​

Now, if you want to cite specific laws governing the procedure a POTUS must take to declassify material (not covered by the nuclear DOE rules) I'll be more than interested in reading them. I have yet to find any that were not just opinion or examples of how it "usually" or "typically" works.

 

[volinbham]

Trump is funded by the Russians.
Biden disclosed possession of the documents instead of lying.


Both deserve punishment, one would seem to have a higher level of culpability based upon intentional conduct.

Trump is funded by the Russians?

I never indicated either should be free of punishment or that they were equal cases. I was merely responding to LGs comments and pointing out where there are similarities between the two situations which he was downplaying.

At this point we simply do not know if there was intentional conduct on the part of Biden though it's hard to imagine that the documents all being in a folder together were just accidentally taken. Trump certainly has been less cooperative once the discovery of documents was made and perhaps that raises additional violations.

 

[OrangeTsar]

And in all of this, poor Hillary gets forgotten. Instead of a dozen or even Hundreds of PAPER documents marked as classified, she had literally THOUSANDS of classified electronic documents on an unsecured and unpatched server sitting in her bathroom. These were never reviewed or audited and she even had aides illegally remove classified markings when emailing or printing them. And as Secretary of State, she had absolutely ZERO ability to declassify

 

[OrangeTsar]

Trump is funded by the Russians.
Biden disclosed possession of the documents instead of lying.


Both deserve punishment, one would seem to have a higher level of culpability based upon intentional conduct.

Who funded the Biden Center at the University of Pennsylvania? I’ll stay on the line and listen to your answer.

 

[NCFisher]

This is maybe the stupidest argument ever made.

Trump had no power to declassify anything at the time the law was broken. That is a red herring and I am amazed that anyone with 46 chromosomes would argue.

Was Trump in possession of top secret documents? Yes.

Was he president at the time? Nope

Could he remove the top secret tag? No, because he wasn't president.

I'm amazed that someone this unobjectively ignorant would be so laughably self-assured. I'll walk you through this as if you have 35 chromosomes.

The constitution delegates the president as the sole classification authority. It is not subject to the removal of "top secret tags", EO protocol established by a prior president, congress, an agency, or anything except the plenary power vested by the Constitution. The classification system is literally a construct of executive orders dating to 1951; it is rules to live by for everyone except the president, and is not binding on successive presidents. This is why Garland did not attempt to make a criminal case of the possession or classification status of the docs Trump held, which he would have to argue, eventually, to SCOTUS. This isn't the petty shite CNN would reduce it to.

When FBI visited MAL in June, they left with documents in response to a May 11 subpoena which specifically did not refer to classified documents but rather specified documents “bearing classification markings”. DOJ's Jay Bratt told Trump to maintain storage of remaining documents at MAL and not to move them, and make some minor security improvements.

Trump was president on Jan 19-20 2021 when he publicly declared he was declassifying documents: In one of his final acts, Trump declassifies documents on FBI's Russia probe and internally in the months leading up to his leaving office: Documents at Mar-a-Lago Marked 'Classified' Were Already Declassified It has not been shown that the documents he referred to were other than those at MAL.
Does the vice president have constitutional classification authority? - "Nope". Is there any evidence the documents in Biden's possession were declassified, or was he even VP these last six years he possessed them? - "Nope".

Those are the meaningful distinctions. Now go put some salve on that.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

If you thoroughly read your source material you would have noticed in your first link the use of "typically" which means not always and "usually" which means there have been exceptions. There is no prescribed method a POTUS must follow in order to declassify documents. Even within your link it brings up the instances where Trump declassified material related to the RussiaGate investigation and all he did was announce it publicly.

As for BOs executive order it doesn't address presidential authority so it has no bearing on this conversation.

And to your last link. Even SCOTUS agrees that the president can "waive a magic wand" and declassify except in certain instances.



Now, if you want to cite specific laws governing the procedure a POTUS must take to declassify material (not covered by the nuclear DOE rules) I'll be more than interested in reading them. I have yet to find any that were not just opinion or examples of how it "usually" or "typically" works.

Heil Trumpism! Despite that, I found your commentary of interest.

 

[hog88]

Heil Trumpism! Despite that, I found your commentary of interest.

It's just how things work and people need to quit making things up. The fact is outside of a few nuclear and weapon related subjects which are specifically spelled out in law a POTUS can think it, waive a magic wand, whisper it to his dog and declassify almost anything. He doesn't have to announce it, fill out paperwork or follow a procedure.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

It's just how things work and people need to quit making things up. The fact is outside of a few nuclear and weapon related subjects which are specifically spelled out in law a POTUS can think it, waive a magic wand, whisper it to his dog and declassify almost anything. He doesn't have to announce it, fill out paperwork or follow a procedure.

Eh? Trump dislike dogs, according to some, including his ex-wife dogs don't like him either. So he wouldn't be whispering anything to his dog, he doesn't have one. JFYI.