Federal Indictment of Donald Trump

[AM64]

I said this when this happened to Trump: if classification only applies to people other than the President, then the President can’t declassify things secretly without leaving some sort of record, memorandum, or at least speaking the words to notify somebody else. There has to be notice to the people whose access is changed; the marking is what matters.

I agree that is the way it should be but it isn't and if I'm wrong it shouldn't take you long to find the statute covering the procedure a POTUS must follow to declassify documents. There is a clearly defined law on the books covering presidential power relating to nuclear and other weapons secrets so there must be one covering the rest?

There has to be some clarification and procedure about classifying and declassifying any document. The military and intelligence agencies have valid reason to classify plans, gathered intelligence, methods and equipment, and to protect sources - those are the items that come to mind; and nobody including the CIC should have the ability to unilaterally declassify that material without procedure and process - even obsolescence should have to be proved.

As far as working documents that the president and his appointees classify, they should have the authority to declassify ... as long as they follow procedure and process for both classifying and declassifying. That's a political arena and most of those documents are likely more to prevent embarrassment to the president than be of real national security. The presidents we elect are too stupid to direct national security and develop contingency plans (probably why they have think tanks) - those plans almost have to fall under intelligence or military.

 

[AM64]

I agree that is the way it should be but it isn't and if I'm wrong it shouldn't take you long to find the statute covering the procedure a POTUS must follow to declassify documents. There is a clearly defined law on the books covering presidential power relating to nuclear and other weapons secrets so there must be one covering the rest?

There certainly should be procedures for both classifying and declassifying, but I wouldn't count on it. At the presidential level, I'd bet a lot of classification is simply done to protect the president and his flunkies from embarrassment ... and to keep them from being unelectable the next time around. You won't find many managers anywhere that are open books and don't have hidden deeds, plans, and agendas. I'd guess presidents like the to classify that stuff for self importance as much as viable need.

 

[AM64]

Lock 'em up.

Locking up a few politicians would be the best thing to happen to American government in 100 years.

Careful. You might be joining us on the dark side. I'm anti authority ... about as bad as it gets. My preference would be to shoot ex-presidents and any congress critters unfortunate enough to be voted out of office - or to reach ten years in office. That way we don't have to see them, hear from them, or support them. Unfortunately that would tend to keep the competent people from ever seeking office.

 

[hog88]

There certainly should be procedures for both classifying and declassifying, but I wouldn't count on it. At the presidential level, I'd bet a lot of classification is simply done to protect the president and his flunkies from embarrassment ... and to keep them from being unelectable the next time around. You won't find many managers anywhere that are open books and don't have hidden deeds, plans, and agendas. I'd guess presidents like the to classify that stuff for self importance as much as viable need.

I'd bet the house that upwards of 90% of material that is classified (outside of defense) is classified because it is embarrassing to the government or shows criminality by the government.

 

[AM64]

It’s an executive order and it does not say the president can declassify with a fart.

Presidents should have limited ability to make the rules. They can arrange the desk however they want, but stuff like classifying, declassifying, and retaining/destroying records should be codified. If it's good enough for others in government then it's good enough for presidents.

 

[RockyTop85]

But executive orders are as binding on successive presidents as a fart.

See e.g DACA.

 

[AM64]

It’s an executive order and it does not say the president can declassify with a fart.

If classifying/declassifying is simply an executive order then it's as meaningless as a fart in the wind because it can be changed at any time and the next guy up can delete the process and never replace the process. Think about your own occupation and retention and security of documents ... and why it's done.

 

[RockyTop85]

What does it say about the procedure a president must follow? You can link it if you want.

Unsurprisingly, you are wrong. Again.

Executive Order 13526- Classified National Security Information

Starts at section 1.5.

 

[AM64]

But executive orders are as binding on successive presidents as a fart.

It is not known whether Trump had any docs he had not already classified in the months prior as Kash Patel has stated, or not among those in his declass authorization on Jan 19, 2021. Which DOJ had attempted to run the clock out on, and even after Trump accepted their redactions Garland decided he didn't have to honor the declassification order. That doesn't nullify their declassification, it means our AG is political and petty. Memorandum on Declassification of Certain Materials Related to the FBI’s Crossfire Hurricane Investigation – The White House

Does Trump believe he can simply think declassification and it happens, or is he jabbing the left who'd lose their shite in any event? Who knows. But what we do know is that while farting docs into declassification is a humorous approximation of thinking them into declass, Trump actually did notify everyone in the nation he was doing so. And that more than fulfills any constitutional obligation, real or imagined. Probably 95% of the wailing/gnashing over the class status of the docs would be unnecessary by this simple observation, but hell! - what's more fun than convincing oneself (with DOJ pulling our strings) that Trump has gone from election collusion with Russians to selling them nuke secrets?

Some of us are certainly on the same page about this.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Absolutely agree. Nixon did it that way. Dumped Agnew and picked up Ford. Problem is nobody has anything other than incompetence to nail Harris with, and her incompetence is basically no worse than joe's.

I still remember the Agnew joke wristwatches that ran backwards. Think you could order them from Mad magazine

 

[hog88]

Unsurprisingly, you are wrong. Again.

Executive Order 13526- Classified National Security Information

Starts at section 1.5.

I am? How so? Nothing in the EO you linked covers the president other than referring his his ultimate authority as arbitrator in any disputes over classification. See sections 1.7 4 and 3.1 2e. How can the ultimate arbitrator lack the authority to decide what is classified and what isn't?

It also doesn't cover Navy v Egan. So I'm going to need more before agreeing that I'm wrong.

 

[AM64]

But executive orders are as binding on successive presidents as a fart.

It is not known whether Trump had any docs he had not already classified in the months prior as Kash Patel has stated, or not among those in his declass authorization on Jan 19, 2021. Which DOJ had attempted to run the clock out on, and even after Trump accepted their redactions Garland decided he didn't have to honor the declassification order. That doesn't nullify their declassification, it means our AG is political and petty. Memorandum on Declassification of Certain Materials Related to the FBI’s Crossfire Hurricane Investigation – The White House

Does Trump believe he can simply think declassification and it happens, or is he jabbing the left who'd lose their shite in any event? Who knows. But what we do know is that while farting docs into declassification is a humorous approximation of thinking them into declass, Trump actually did notify everyone in the nation he was doing so. And that more than fulfills any constitutional obligation, real or imagined. Probably 95% of the wailing/gnashing over the class status of the docs would be unnecessary by this simple observation, but hell! - what's more fun than convincing oneself (with DOJ pulling our strings) that Trump has gone from election collusion with Russians to selling them nuke secrets?

And the other part. Is there even a document log, and does it contain whether the documents are classified and to what level. Outside the military and intelligence, the whole concept of security seems to be a joke. Without a document inventory including classification, it's impossible to tell what is and isn't classified and if it's secure or off in the ether ... maybe in joe's garage. The other big issue now with the advent of technology is keeping tabs of printed and electronic versions, and whether they have been duplicated and how far distributed. If the documents aren't in a vault without electronic access, they basically aren't secure regardless of content and classification.

 

[RockyTop85]

Some of us are certainly on the same page about this.

Executive orders are binding until repealed or supersceded. People cried about all the XOs Biden used in his first 100 days, but many of them were just rescinding prior XO’s. Why would he bother doing that if they didn’t have any effect in his administration? Why did Trump need to rescind the order creating DACA? Why does the preamble to 13526 rescind prior XOs dealing with classification?

The same reason that a document’s markings, rather than presidential whim, are what govern their classification status: The written law/regulation/order is what gives notice to people who have to follow those laws/regulations/orders of their duties and limitations.

These aren’t constitutional questions, it’s just administrative procedure. The entire concept of classified information within the executive branch is set forth in this XO. There’s no higher authority that grants the president greater powers or lesser powers. Congress could arguably limit those powers, but has not in a way that is particularly meaningful to this discussion. If the XO is constitutional, then it controls until it is replaced or rescinded. So this is how it is done until the order is repealed or changed and since the Trump presidency is ended without repealing or changing, that is how it was done for his presidency.

XO 13526 says a number of things that are pertinent here: 1. that authority for classification may be exercised and delegated by the president and vice president. 2. that declassification doesn’t result from accidental disclosure. 3. Section 1.5 sets out procedures for classification including the requirement of labeling and including a justification as well as a time frame and predicate events for declassification; 4. section 3.1 sets out procedures for declassification including that items that still meet the classification criteria (which should be set out in the face of the cover sheet) are presumed classified.

This is the same type thing that happened with the “liability shield” stuff. It’s just patently nonsensical stuff born of motivated reasoning. Same as the liability shield stuff with the Covid vaccines.

 

[AM64]

I read that when it was linked by someone else a few days ago. It doesn't cover POTUS and his authority nor does it set a procedure POTUS must follow.

I suspect the reason Rocky hasn't replied is because he cannot find anything limiting the powers of POTUS when it comes to declassifying material (other than the nuclear mentioned earlier).

Rules for thee and not for me. We need bring presidents back down to earth; they are clowns we elect for some unfathomable reason and not gods. Put "Chief" in the title and the holder immediately goes off the reservation all full of self importance. That goes for business as well as government, too.

 

[RockyTop85]

I am? How so? Nothing in the EO you linked covers the president other than referring his his ultimate authority as arbitrator in any disputes over classification. See sections 1.7 4 and 3.1 2e. How can the ultimate arbitrator lack the authority to decide what is classified and what isn't?

It also doesn't cover Navy v Egan. So I'm going to need more before agreeing that I'm wrong.

He doesn’t “lack the authority to decide” holy strawmen. How is this difficult for you and why should I value the opinion of somebody who is too stupid to understand the difference between “must follow procedures” and “lacks authority to decide?” Certainly don’t value it enough to try to change it.

The president’s decisions about classification have to follow some modicum of procedure to have any effect. At a minimum they must be documented in the way that’s laid out in 1.5 and 3.1.

 

[rekinhavoc]

"If you can't discuss politics without getting angry then this is not for you. All regular board rules apply. Please respect each others opinion."

- Frank

 

[AM64]

Executive orders are binding until repealed or supersceded. People cried about all the XOs Biden used in his first 100 days, but many of them were just rescinding prior XO’s. Why would he bother doing that if they didn’t have any effect in his administration? Why did Trump need to rescind the order creating DACA? Why does the preamble to 13526 rescind prior XOs dealing with classification?

The same reason that a document’s markings, rather than presidential whim, are what govern their classification status: The written law/regulation/order is what gives notice to people who have to follow those laws/regulations/orders of their duties and limitations.

These aren’t constitutional questions, it’s just administrative procedure. The entire concept of classified information within the executive branch is set forth in this XO. There’s no higher authority that grants the president greater powers or lesser powers. Congress could arguably limit those powers, but has not in a way that is particularly meaningful to this discussion. If the XO is constitutional, then it controls until it is replaced or rescinded. So this is how it is done until the order is repealed or changed and since the Trump presidency is ended without repealing or changing, that is how it was done for his presidency.

XO 13526 says a number of things that are pertinent here: 1. that authority for classification may be exercised and delegated by the president and vice president. 2. that declassification doesn’t result from accidental disclosure. 3. Section 1.5 sets out procedures for classification including the requirement of labeling and including a justification as well as a time frame and predicate events for declassification; 4. section 3.1 sets out procedures for declassification including that items that still meet the classification criteria (which should be set out in the face of the cover sheet) are presumed classified.

This is the same type thing that happened with the “liability shield” stuff. It’s just patently nonsensical stuff born of motivated reasoning. Same as the liability shield stuff with the Covid vaccines.

A lot of that is the point. If you can change the rules at any point in time with a stroke of the presidential pen, then you have nothing. Presidents may come and go, but certainly some rules and procedures need to be enduring. If a president decides to change classification/declassification and how classified records are maintained and secured, then can you argue that records prior to that date are without classification or that they are in limbo because the rules changed. This is one time I move from anti-bureaucracy to saying there has to be ongoing administrative policy that is only modified because times change ... like the advent of transmission via electronic technology.

 

[hog88]

He doesn’t “lack the authority to decide” holy strawmen. How is this difficult for you and why should I value the opinion of somebody who is too stupid to understand the difference between “must follow procedures” and “lacks authority to decide?” Certainly don’t value it enough to try to change it.

The president’s decisions about classification have to follow some modicum of procedure to have any effect. At a minimum they must be documented in the way that’s laid out in 1.5 and 3.1.

No they don't. Everyone mentioned in section 1.5 through 3.1 WORKS for the executive branch and the only times the president is mentioned is in situations where someone is appealing a classification ruling. Not 1 damn time does it mention a procedure the POTUS must follow. The courts have already ruled that all classification authority lies with the executive except where specified by law.

 

[RockyTop85]

A lot of that is the point. If you can change the rules at any point in time with a stroke of the presidential pen, then you have nothing. Presidents may come and go, but certainly some rules and procedures need to be enduring. If a president decides to change classification/declassification and how classified records are maintained and secured, then can you argue that records prior to that date are without classification or that they are in limbo because the rules changed. This is one time I move from anti-bureaucracy to saying there has to be ongoing administrative policy that is only modified because times change ... like the advent of transmission via electronic technology.

This appears to be a comment about propriety and utility of executive orders, generally, which I think is a change of subject.

 

[hog88]

And the other part. Is there even a document log, and does it contain whether the documents are classified and to what level. Outside the military and intelligence, the whole concept of security seems to be a joke. Without a document inventory including classification, it's impossible to tell what is and isn't classified and if it's secure or off in the ether ... maybe in joe's garage. The other big issue now with the advent of technology is keeping tabs of printed and electronic versions, and whether they have been duplicated and how far distributed. If the documents aren't in a vault without electronic access, they basically aren't secure regardless of content and classification.

I do agree with you that congress should pass a law describing an exact procedure a President must follow to declassify something but disagree that any power to decide classification should be taken away from the President.

 

[AM64]

This appears to be a comment about propriety and utility of executive orders, generally, which I think is a change of subject.

Perhaps, but it's really about continuance of policy that should only be change when conditions change rather than when people filling an interim post change. I don't think classification of materials (documents and hardware) was as critical an issue when the Constitution was written as it has become since ... after all how much changed from cannon to cannon and sailing ship to sailing ship. Executive orders made and still make sense, but some things under the executive branch are enduring and should not be subject to change with administrations; we haven't dealt reasonably with the issue.

 

[AM64]

I do agree with you that congress should pass a law describing an exact procedure a President must follow to declassify something but disagree that any power to decide classification should be taken away from the President.

As long as there is a process in place to classify and declassify and the president has to follow the process, I'd agree. The weakness in that thought process is that if a pipeline is on or off dependent on the whim of a president, then the reason for assembling and maintaining security of intelligence regarding an issue or a country or the reason for developing and keeping secure the details of a weapons system are just as vulnerable. If we develop an anti-missile system with technology no other country has, and an incoming president declares it unnecessary, he might also decide the technology is no longer worth securing. Some of the people we put in office simply aren't trustworthy and have lapses in judgement simply based on political viewpoint

 

[hog88]

As long as there is a process in place to classify and declassify and the president has to follow the process, I'd agree. The weakness in that thought process is that if a pipeline is on or off dependent on the whim of a president, then the reason for assembling and maintaining security of intelligence regarding an issue or a country or the reason for developing and keeping secure the details of a weapons system are just as vulnerable. If we develop an anti-missile system with technology no other country has, and an incoming president declares it unnecessary, he might also decide the technology is no longer worth securing. Some of the people we put in office simply aren't trustworthy and have lapses in judgement simply based on political viewpoint

There is a law covering nuclear and I think other advanced weapons systems that takes away the complete authority on classification from the president.

 

[RockyTop85]

No they don't. Everyone mentioned in section 1.5 through 3.1 WORKS for the executive branch and the only times the president is mentioned is in situations where someone is appealing a classification ruling. Not 1 damn time does it mention a procedure the POTUS must follow. The courts have already ruled that all classification authority lies with the executive except where specified by law.

Anything about Navy v. Egan is fighting the same strawman that made you look stupid in the last post. For the last time: I am not questioning presidential authority. This is just GIGO from a reliable, but poorly trained, Trump parrot. memorizing your lines isn’t impressive if you don’t know when you’re supposed to say them. Also, the reliance on that case for this idea is either desperate or ignorant. https://sgp.fas.org/eprint/egan.pdf

However, courts actually have ruled that the president has to follow procedures to exercise his authority regarding declassification. https://cases.justia.com/federal/appellate-courts/ca2/18-2112/18-2112-2020-07-09.pdf?ts=1594303207

You honestly don’t understand the difference between “having the authority” and “following procedures?”

 

[RockyTop85]

Perhaps, but it's really about continuance of policy that should only be change when conditions change rather than when people filling an interim post change. I don't think classification of materials (documents and hardware) was as critical an issue when the Constitution was written as it has become since ... after all how much changed from cannon to cannon and sailing ship to sailing ship. Executive orders made and still make sense, but some things under the executive branch are enduring and should not be subject to change with administrations; we haven't dealt reasonably with the issue.

Some things do, for different reasons and in different ways. That’s why Trump struggled to repeal DACA and why Biden is struggling to change from some Trump border policies.